Michael Reed on Turning Unimaginable Grief Into Healing and Hope

Wendy & Rich 0:01
Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios, Hartford County Living presents Conversations with Rich Bennett. 

[overlapping voices]

Rich Bennett 0:27
On November 28th, 2016, Michael Reed's world was shattered when a wildfire tore through Gatlandburg, Tennessee, taking the lives of his wife and two daughters. What followed was not a linear journey through the five stages of grief. It was something far more complex, raw and deeply human. Through unimaginable pain, Michael discovered that grief isn't something you overcome. It's something you learn to live with, shape, and even grow from. His book, The Million Stages of Grief, is not just a memoir. It's a guy defining purpose within pain and a lifeline for anyone who's ever felt the emptiness of loss. And today, Michael's joining me to discuss his book, but the funny thing is, I gotta tell you how I found Michael. My daughter and while my son's one of these, what do you call TikTok influencers or whatever, and my daughter showed me this video of this guy on a zipline or running a zipline I guess. What'd you do? Get nailed into face? 

Michael Reed 1:41
Yeah, she kicked me right in the face. 

Rich Bennett 1:45
And, of course, my first thing was, " out! Damn, that hurt! So, I had to do my research and then I found out that he wrote this book. It would happen. It's like, "I have to get him on the podcast." So, first of all, Michael, I want to thank you for coming on and thank God that kicked to the faces a long time ago. I guess you're feeling a lot better now, right? 

Michael Reed 2:09
Yeah. Well, it still happens pretty frequently, so. 

Rich Bennett 2:13
You're still doing that? 

Michael Reed 2:15
I still do it and there's a reason that I still work there. Five days before the wildfire was my daughter, Chloe's 12th birthday, and for many years, I was a roller coaster mechanic at Dollywood theme park. 

Rich Bennett 2:29
Oh, 

Michael Reed 2:30
I'm 

Rich Bennett 2:30
wow! 

Michael Reed 2:30
picking forage. And of course, on her birthday, she wanted to go ride rides, so we're at Dollywood all riding rides together, me and the kids, and it was getting later in the day and we walked by their ziplining course because they used to have ziplining there. And she's like, "Daddy, can we zipline from a birthday?" And we walked up to the counter and found out they were closed. So, I promised her the next time that we went to Dollywood, we would zipline, and then five days later, they were all gone. 

Yeah, and we'll get into it later, but I spent many, many years in what I called the darkness. It's a very, very lonely place, and in 2020, I just randomly woke up one day and I was like, "If I become a zipline guide, they can fly with me every day." 

Rich Bennett 3:22
Oh, wow! 

Michael Reed 3:23
And that's why I work there and that's why I'm still there. 

My wife comes to me as a butterfly. My daughter, Chloe, comes to me as a ladybug and my youngest lily, comes to me as an owl. So 

Rich Bennett 3:37
I love that. 

Michael Reed 3:38
what I did was I created 

a bridge in the patch. That's a combination of all three. And I wear that on my every day so that they literally fly with me every day. 

And you know, all the other...

Rich Bennett 4:03
Damn, dude, you're gonna see, you're gonna have to, you've got me tearing up already. Holy cow. 

Michael Reed 4:09
All the little kids, all the kids that zipline with me get to sign their name on my helmet, and this is six years Kids signatures. A lot of the people that zipline with me don't know the story, but 

Rich Bennett 4:24
of... Right. 

Michael Reed 4:24
everyone of those little signatures is an opportunity for me to get to be a daddy again for a little bit. And that's truly, truly what it's about for me. 

Rich Bennett 4:36
I think you're running out of space on your helmet. 

Michael Reed 4:39
Yeah. I refuse to get a new one. I mean, that's layer upon layer upon layer of signatures. And I just, I love it exactly the way it is. 

Rich Bennett 4:50
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 4:50
So, 

Rich Bennett 4:51
I think you need to get like a gene jacket or something that they can also sign. 

Michael Reed 4:55
That's a good idea. 

Rich Bennett 4:57
Yeah. Yeah. If you run out of complete space, you can have something else, because let's face it, you are gonna run out of space. 

Michael Reed 5:07
Eventually. Yeah. It's gotten to the point where they're writing on the inside of it now, which is great 

Rich Bennett 5:12
for what? 

Michael Reed 5:13
Sweating is then it bleeds down my face, but, you know, it is what it is. 

Rich Bennett 5:20
Oh, man. I want to get it to the book. When did you actually first realized that writing could actually help you begin to process what you've been through. 

Michael Reed 5:37
In 2023. 

Not just on the 28th, which is the anniversary. It's the whole month. It's like a whole month of just, I have no focus. I can't concentrate. I am anxious all the time. I still have PTSD and anxiety and depression and those things are triggered. And the leaves are all from the sky. It terrifies me because me and my son drove into the fire to get to our house. And every, every leaf was on fire. And that's all I remember is when the leaves fall, catch on fire. So over the years, I've developed these very hard, paranoid fears. And then 2023, it kind of all came to a head. I ended up in the hospital and I thought I was having a heart attack. And the doctors hooked me up to all these machines and I laid there for a few hours and I'll never forget that the doctor walked in and he sat on the bed and he held my hand. And he said, Michael, your heart's fine. And what I realized in that moment was even though my heart's fine, it's still broken. is 

Rich Bennett 6:55
Right, 

Michael Reed 6:55
a, 

Rich Bennett 6:56
which 

Michael Reed 6:57
and I had I had to do something to make a change. So on the anniversary of the fires in 2023, I went to the memorial roses. I buy them, I buy the girls a gift every year and I leave it at the memorial. And I had a really, really long talk with them and I said, I cannot let date on a calendar, just absolutely overtake my life. I have to make this date mean something different. 

Rich Bennett 7:21
Right. 

Michael Reed 7:22
And I closed my eyes and I literally heard Chloe whisper to me, daddy, it's time to do the work. 

And I knew exactly what she meant. So I went home and I enrolled in college. 

Rich Bennett 7:37
Oh, wow. 

Michael Reed 7:38
How can I help other people with their hurts if I understand my own yet. 

Rich Bennett 7:44
Right. 

Michael Reed 7:44
So I'm now a junior at GCU, majoring in behavioral science. 

4.0 student, they'd be proud of me. 

Rich Bennett 7:54
Nice. 

Michael Reed 7:56
And I've learned so much about my own hurt, and I've learned so much, 

Rich Bennett 8:03
yeah, 

Michael Reed 8:03
how to help other people with their hurts and That began my journey, you know, I thought my life 

Rich Bennett 8:13
wow. 

Michael Reed 8:14
ended the night of the fires, but what I've realized over time is that's actually the beginning of my story. So I started college and I started a different form of therapy called EMDR, which is geared just for people with ESD. 

Rich Bennett 8:30
Yeah, 

Michael Reed 8:31
It's been an absolute life changer for me. And a few years ago, I started a blog. I had so many things in my head and I had nowhere to put him, so I would write them down on my phone just to get it out. And I would put the date on it so that a year later, I could 

Rich Bennett 8:47
right. 

Michael Reed 8:48
go back and go, okay, this last year, how do I feel today compared to then. And I was finding that it's still the same like I wasn't getting any better. And so randomly one day, I just took one of my things that I had written and I posted on my Facebook page. And it went nuts. Yeah, there are messages from people. I didn't even know that said, oh, my gosh, 

Rich Bennett 9:14
Wow. 

Michael Reed 9:14
I lost my mom five years ago. And wrote is exactly how I felt. And then I would get messages from people that I could have never explained grief the way that you just did in this post. Will you please write a book? Will you please write a book? Will you please write a book? And I heard that for a long time. So in 2023, aside from going to college, I promised the girls I would, I would write the book, so it took me a while to write. 

But I released it on April 1st. And it's already one international impact book award. I got to, I got to number two on Amazon in my category, which is trauma psychology. And if I got into number one, I would have gotten that little number one best seller banner. I just couldn't do it. It's been 

Rich Bennett 10:03
a Michael. It's not too late. 

Michael Reed 10:05
I'm trying. I'm trying. But I realized through this journey that grief is not just about losing somebody. I have to say grief could be losing a job. It could be losing a pet. It could be a divorce. It could be anything traumatic that happens to a person causes grief. and... Well the 5 stage model that we've all been taught is understandable. It wasn't conceived in a way 

through the lens of somebody losing somebody. It was actually developed 

Rich Bennett 10:50
by 

Michael Reed 10:52
talking to people that were terminally ill. You know you're going to die, what stages are you going through in your mind? And that's where the original 5 stages of grief comes from. And if you put yourself in that bend, that perspective, it makes sense, you're going to be in denial, then you're- 

Rich Bennett 11:09
Right. 

Michael Reed 11:09
Angry, then you're going to bargain, then you're going to be depressed, and then you're going to accept what's coming. But that's not the same thing when you lose someone. So the whole concept of the book is there's not 5 stages of grief, there's a million stages of grief. And they're ugly, and they're inner-quarned, 

Rich Bennett 11:28
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 11:28
and they affect every facet of your life. And the- the number one comment that I've gotten the most is, and- and this is from, you know, professionals and psychiatrists and doctors, this is written in a way where 

you can feel my pain in my story, but you can take parts of my story and relate to your own trauma. And each chapter is broken up in two ways. So the first half of each chapter is one of the things that I've written over the years in those really dark places. And then the second half of each chapter teaches you just the skills, the tools, the guidance to get through that stage of the grief, and come out the other side better. Because we will never move on, but we have to- we have to move. 

Rich Bennett 12:25
No. 

Michael Reed 12:25
There's a difference. And just- just the 

Rich Bennett 12:29
Big 

Michael Reed 12:29
response 

Rich Bennett 12:29
difference. 

Michael Reed 12:29
I've gotten has just been unbelievable. I- I- before I hit publish that- I- I sat at my computer staring at that publish button for about an hour. And I'm like, "Do I really want to do this?" And I looked up and I told the girls, "Girls, this is in your hands. I don't care if one person reads it or a million people read it, giving this all to you, and I'm just alone for the ride." No, my girls. Lilly was my SASS. 

I have never envisioned TikTok as a means of promoting this book. But Lilly- Lilly would have been a TikToker because 

Rich Bennett 13:09
li- 

Michael Reed 13:09
this was 

Rich Bennett 13:10
right- 

Michael Reed 13:10
in one stand. This is Lilly right here. She was my SASS. She had the hand on the hips and she- she- oh, she was my Spunk. And I can see up there right now smiling, down, going, "See, Dad? We used TikTok and you didn't think about it." And that, you know, those moments just warmed my soul. And it's just a reminder that those- those we lose are always with us. They never- 

Rich Bennett 13:38
yeah. Absolutely. 

Michael Reed 13:41
You know, I- I- I spent a long time in the darkness because I thought I had to stay in the darkness to keep them with me. But what I've learned on this journey is to keep them with me. I have to step out of the darkness. 

And that is the journey that I'm on now. 

Rich Bennett 14:03
And the good thing with you doing that, and especially publishing a book, is you are helping others. And there's- I'll never forget this one. Unfortunately, my wife and I- my wife and I had lost our- first daughter. She was still born, and this was- this was way before TikTok or anything. There- there really weren't even support groups out there. Yeah. So it's like, "What do you do?" But- and people didn't talk about things like that a lot. Now people are talking about it. They're helping others. And I have to commend you for that because it, it, it does. And I also think of one of my co-hooists, Wendy, who actually lost her daughter to addiction. And she wrote a book. And now she's, she's, she's helping other people. And she- Getting the word out there makes a big difference. And when you know your help of people, and I- well, you've got- you've had responses. It makes your heart grow so- 

Michael Reed 15:09
it- it- it 

Rich Bennett 15:11
you know, 

Michael Reed 15:11
flutters. I mean, every single- 

Rich Bennett 15:15
yeah. 

Michael Reed 15:17
The- the one line from- that I remember the most that somebody sent me was- I read your entire book. And there was one sentence that stuck out. And even my loss was 10 year ago, her 15 years ago, her long, it was that she had lost her, her husband. She said that one line in the book is something that she's been 

Rich Bennett 15:41
her- 

Michael Reed 15:41
saying to for years. And face, she saw somebody else that went through the same feeling that she had. And it was just instant weight, not her shoulders, because she knew she was never alone. And that is one of the key components in this is. you are never lonely, ever. I don't care if you've only lost a pet when you were a child. A lot of experience. Did you cry when that pet died? Yeah. Well, guess what? I mean, now bonded because here's what I said today are the same tears that you shed when you lot of people fighting on this. They're like it's not the same. No, it is the same. It's the same tears. It's the same because it's the same hurt. So the purpose for my pain. Is to with 

Rich Bennett 16:33
her. 

Michael Reed 16:33
their 

Rich Bennett 16:33
Yeah, 

Michael Reed 16:35
and to teach them the skills to use their pain to help somebody with their hurts. That is how you change the world. And that is all I want to do in the time I have left. 

Rich Bennett 16:47
And actually in the book, you actually describe describe grief as something, well, like you said, it evolves rather than ends. So how has your own grief changed? Yeah, you know, shaped you over the years. 

Michael Reed 17:04
For the first several years, 

I was very isolated. 

I didn't work for two years after the fire. I was cantonic like 

Rich Bennett 17:23
Right. 

Michael Reed 17:23
it was. I have never processed losing our home. I've never processed losing the dogs that we had that we lost that night. I've never processed losing all of our possessions. I've only made it to the part where I've lost them and none of the rest matters. No offense to my dogs. I look my dogs, but I just can't get passed. Nothing else matters. Besides the fact that I lost them, you know, 

Rich Bennett 17:48
yeah, 

Michael Reed 17:50
and I 

I suffered for a really long time. 

I couldn't hang pictures of the kids up in my house because it would be a constant reminder of what I lost. I didn't like talking about it because I'd cry every time I talked about it. And then just one day, it just kind of hit me. 

I want to see pictures of my girls hanging on the wall. 

Rich Bennett 18:28
Yeah, 

Michael Reed 18:28
because they're still here. So I went and I I hung up a bunch of pictures back up, and I've got them up in my foyer so that as I'm walking to my bedroom, the last thing I see is there last school pictures right before the fire. The last thing I see before I go to Bens is their pictures. 

that was step one and then step two was talk about it 

Rich Bennett 18:57
right. 

Michael Reed 18:59
I can't I can't keep it inside any longer, you know, I have to 

Rich Bennett 19:03
Yeah, 

Michael Reed 19:03
talk about them, because they're still my life. There's still my world. They're still my everything. 

And I'm proud to 

Rich Bennett 19:13
dad. 

Michael Reed 19:14
be their 

Rich Bennett 19:14
Mm hmm. 

Michael Reed 19:15
I'm proud to be her husband. And even though there is a physical distance between us spiritually, we're even more connected now than we ever were when they were here. And. 

Rich Bennett 19:31
Yeah, 

yeah, and thank God for memories to end dreams. I mean, that's God, that's a one thing. I to see the people that we've lost in our dreams. I think it just with me when I wake up, I just feel much happier, you know, 

Michael Reed 19:58
I struggled with dreams for a long time. I had a lot of nightmares. 

Rich Bennett 20:02
So did

Michael Reed 20:03
I with with the PTSD and everything, but there was recurring dream that I would always have. And I was on a cruise ship. And every time I had this dream, it was a different cruise ship, but it was the same story. I'd be on the very top deck overlooking all the pools and everything. And I would look way on the other side. And I'd see the girls waving at me with their faces. And I would run around to get him. And right before I got to him, they would say, get us, daddy. And they'd start running. And I would have to search every single door on that cruise ship to try to find them. And it would take me forever. And then I would finally get to the last door. And I opened the door. And they were standing there holding hands. 

So daddy, we've missed you. 

Oh, and as soon as I would get to hug him and wake up every time. 

But for a split second, I got to hold him again. 

Rich Bennett 21:26
And it felt real, didn't it? 

Michael Reed 21:28
Oh, yeah. I can still smell Chloe's hair. I can still smell Lilly's morning breath. Oh my gosh, that was rank. And I 

Rich Bennett 21:41
She's 

I was not expected that Michael. But, but I mean, it's those things that you remember and you miss, 

Michael Reed 21:53
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 21:54
And it's, oh, those are the memories you never went to go away, you know. Oh, man. And it's it's, I don't want to say it's weird. I think it's them watching because I see it with my parents. I see it with my older brother and everything. All of a sudden, even while you're awake, I'm not talking about dreams. I'm talking about when you're awake. You can smell them. 

Michael Reed 22:20
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 22:21
You sense they're there. You know, and it just, I mean, for me, it just makes me feel so, so much better. Makes me feel good because I feel like they're right there. All my shoulders watching over me. 

Michael Reed 22:35
I, um, I live at the, the end of a long dirt 

Rich Bennett 22:41
road, mm-hmm. 

Michael Reed 22:42
Because I couldn't stand seeing the mountains anymore. And I couldn't stand hearing fire trucks and sirens and traffic. So I found a house out in the middle of nowhere. And, um, it would have been five years ago now. Um, 

middle of the day, we look outside and they're going to ow. White pole staring at me. 

That doesn't happen. Owls don't come out during the day. 

Rich Bennett 23:17
No. 

Michael Reed 23:17
And I know that's not my daughter, but that daughter. 

And I named her glory. She has a boyfriend, I named, 

Rich Bennett 23:31
oh, 

Michael Reed 23:32
boyfriend, that I named Frank, because he's kind of stupid and doesn't know how to land right. It's kind of sloppy. But every year they have babies. 

Rich Bennett 23:43
Oh, 

Michael Reed 23:43
These 

Rich Bennett 23:43
wow. 

Michael Reed 23:44
land in my yard at night. And we get to watch a meat. 

Rich Bennett 23:51
Oh, 

Michael Reed 23:52
and to this day. To this day, if I've had a bad day, and it's, you know, nine o'clock at night. My dog has to go to the bathroom. I'll go outside and take her out and I'll hear the owl 

Rich Bennett 24:11
talking to you. 

Wow. 

Michael Reed 24:15
It's just her saying daddy. It's going to be 

Rich Bennett 24:20
okay. Yeah. 

Michael Reed 24:26
Chloe comes to me as a ladybug, and I can't tell you how many times ladybug's just land on me. 

Which is, you know, a common thing. So I try not to exaggerate the fantasy too much. You know, my wife has a butterfly. Butterfly is land on me all the time. 

Rich Bennett 24:52
But did they before? 

Michael Reed 24:55
Never. 

Rich Bennett 24:56
Right. 

See, and that's the thing. It just. 

Michael Reed 25:03
And that's one of the big, that's one of the big messages and all of this is even though 

they're not here. 

If you, if you stop looking like this, and open up and look like this, you'll realize that they've been with you. 

And I have to see it. I mean, after you see it the first time it 

Rich Bennett 25:30
stopped. 

Michael Reed 25:30
never 

Rich Bennett 25:31
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 25:33
I was a big dollar store, and the first thing I see when I walk in is an owl. And I'm like, really. 

It's everywhere. 

So why am I sitting? Why am I sitting here in this darkness, crying and not living and 

Rich Bennett 25:52
Everywhere. 

Michael Reed 25:53
not breathing and not laughing? When these signs are all around me that they want me to do those things. And I still struggle with that. I do. You know, there's places I can't go anymore. I haven't been to dollywood in years because I had so many memories with them there. I just don't think I can do it. I can't go to the Chinese buffet that we used to go to every Sunday because so well, the health score doesn't help. 

Apparently, now if you go there, you get roaches for 

Rich Bennett 26:27
far. 

Michael Reed 26:27
But. But but we go there every Sunday. And I just, I don't. 

Rich Bennett 26:34
Oh 

Michael Reed 26:34
We're 

Rich Bennett 26:34
God. 

Michael Reed 26:34
all enough to be able to go there and not break down. And I'm getting really close to the place where just like I just like I knew I had to start talking about them more. A little piece of me that's wanting to go back to those places again and make new memories. 

Rich Bennett 26:57
Right

Michael Reed 26:58
with them because they're on the roller coaster with me, you know. And I'm getting there that that's kind of my next phase and my E and V are therapy is to be able to go back to those places and. 

I'm getting there. It's a process. 

Rich Bennett 27:20
It also sounds to me like a second book in the making. 

Michael Reed 27:25
You know, I. 

We're going to have to see how this one goes. Like if this 

Rich Bennett 27:34
Right. 

Michael Reed 27:34
one can really gain some traction and really fall. I already know what the next title was going to be. It's going to be the million stages of healing. 

Rich Bennett 27:43
Oh, I love that. 

Michael Reed 27:44
And then the million stages of and then the million stages of happiness. 

Rich Bennett 27:50
It's like the new chicken books chicken book or chicken chicken soup for this old series. 

Michael Reed 27:56
Yes. Yeah, that that that's exactly what I hope this becomes. 

Rich Bennett 28:00
It will. 

Michael Reed 28:03
Because man, there's so much division in this in this country in the world and there's so much hatred and there's so much anger and there's you. 

That grief can actually be a united. 

And with so much division, it's nice to have something to bring us together. Even though those are the worst moments of our lives. 

Rich Bennett 28:32
Well, it's like you said you, I mean, you're basically. You're you can learn from your grief. , 

and you know, 

Michael Reed 28:53
and I know, I know people to this day. I know a lady who lost her son 25 years ago. And she's still stuck in that darkness. And and and I get it, I get it. Um, 

Rich Bennett 29:08
have you, hey, does she have your book? 

Michael Reed 29:13
She is taking steps out of the darkness now. 

Rich Bennett 29:16
Very good. Very good, 

Michael Reed 29:20
you know, you know, just one step is better than no steps. 

Rich Bennett 29:24
Exactly. 

Michael Reed 29:25
You know, and and it can be really comfortable to stay in that place. 

Rich Bennett 29:31
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 29:32
Um, 

Rich Bennett 29:34
but it's not healthy either. 

Michael Reed 29:36
It's not. It's not. I mean, I, I, I was, I, I weighed over 200 pounds. I'm only so that, that 200 pounds was just literally destroying me. And 

Rich Bennett 29:50
and right. 

Michael Reed 29:51
I just had no right and no ambition and, and you know, no sense of belonging or purpose. And 

you know what, this isn't how my girls want me to 

Rich Bennett 30:04
we, 

Michael Reed 30:04
live. So I actually started a weight loss journey that took me about two and a half years. But I lost about 75 pounds. And um, 

Rich Bennett 30:14
damn. 

Michael Reed 30:14
Yeah. And and, 

you know, 

Rich Bennett 30:19
holy cow. 

Michael Reed 30:22
This is how they want me to be. you know, 

Rich Bennett 30:25
Yeah, 

Michael Reed 30:26
and 

Rich Bennett 30:27
yeah, that's awesome. 

Michael Reed 30:29
Yeah, I could have very easily eaten my feelings to death. And and you know, that would have left my son alone. And and

Rich Bennett 30:38
you don't want that. You're listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

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Michael Reed 31:58
He's he was 15 when the fires happened and he's 24 now and he is almost a foot taller than me and he somehow can grow a beard much bigger than I can. Like I'm 48 and this is Chiapet. This is all I've ever grown in my entire life. His his beard's down to here man. And I'm like, come on. 

But you know children. As I've learned in college, children process grief differently than adults do. And even though he and I lost the same people, we lost different people. I lost my wife and my daughters. He lost his mom and his sisters and children are able to process grief easier. 

He's been able to process the tragedy and get to a place of acceptance. And it doesn't mean he doesn't miss him and doesn't mean he doesn't love him and he doesn't mean that he doesn't, he gets the signs to all the time. 

Rich Bennett 33:00
Right. 

Michael Reed 33:02
But he was able to maneuver through the process quicker than I was. And you know, it pissed me off a lot of times. I was like, you know, in my head. How can how can you style today? When I can't, you know, and and and I've actually learned a lot from him. 

We can we learn a lot from each other, you know. 

Rich Bennett 33:30
Yeah. 

When when you were writing the book, you did it. Was it actually like therapy for you as well to help cope with everything? 

Michael Reed 33:44
You have no idea. College has become a form of therapy for me. Um, I, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and I have no shame in only that I'm in and I'm in therapy and I take medication. And that's okay. And, um, I've been able to let a lot of of my 

hurts out 

in college. 

Rich Bennett 34:13
Oh. 

Michael Reed 34:14
...and, and I, I write 

a lot of essays where I'll incorporate a little bit of my story into the essay. And when I'm done with the class, I'm like, okay, this part of my journey, I have now processed. Now I, now I know how to look at it better, now I, now I know how to look at it professionally. So I can actually take my feelings out of it and just look at it from a therapist perspective. That's been completely life-changing for me. And then sitting down and writing the book, I probably read it to myself 50 times before I published it. 

Just to feel those old feelings again, and, and to feel 

Rich Bennett 35:09
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 35:09
the darkness again and to remember, 

you know, it's okay 

to say that we're getting 

better. And that's... 

Rich Bennett 35:24
Reading is one thing. Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. 

No, no, no, go ahead and finish your thought there. 

Michael Reed 35:35
Those that we have lost, 

want to stick out, after they're gone. 

Rich Bennett 35:43
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 35:44
And... 

Rich Bennett 35:46
Absolutely. 

Michael Reed 35:48
So to sit there and, and, and, and read this book that I've somehow created, 

it almost didn't seem real. 

It, it, it, it, 

it, it, it, it. I could have never written this book five years ago. I couldn't have written it nine years ago. I couldn't have even written it three years ago. I just, I wasn't there yet to where I can make it all make sense. And to be able to sit down and hold this thing in my hand and go, wow, when you put all this together, it makes sense. 

That tells me that I'm doing the work. 

And... 

Rich Bennett 36:47
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 36:48
I feel that little pat on the back from the girls saying... 

Rich Bennett 36:53
They're, yeah, they're proud of you. 

Michael Reed 36:55
You're starting, you're starting to figure it out, dad. It's about time, dad. 

Rich Bennett 37:02
And, and you talk about the, I mean, you're, you're sitting there reading it, but you also have an audio version of it. Now was it you that did the audio in your own voice or did somebody 

Michael Reed 37:13
No, 

Rich Bennett 37:13
else, 

Michael Reed 37:14
I, I, I cheated and I 

Rich Bennett 37:18
okay. 

Michael Reed 37:18
used AI. 

The book is done so good on Amazon that they actually emailed me and said, hey, would you like an audio book 

Rich Bennett 37:29
Oh, 

Michael Reed 37:29
version for 

Rich Bennett 37:29
wow. 

Michael Reed 37:30
free? And I'm like, yes, please. And the only disclaimer to it was I had to use an AI voice and I'm like, okay. So, you know, I just picked one out that 

Rich Bennett 37:39
probably me 

Michael Reed 37:40
was a guy in his 40s. And and it sounded good enough to me. And because a lot of people, especially when it went viral on TikTok, do you have an audio book? Do you have an audio book? And I did some research and it's like thousands of dollars to produce an audio I'm like, 

Rich Bennett 37:58
I, 

Michael Reed 37:58
no, I don't have an audio book. So to get this offering from Amazon, hey, we'll, we'll throw one on there for free. I was like, yes. And, and I've only listened to half of the first chapter. I can't get past the rest. 

Rich Bennett 38:16
>> Well, and that's why I brought that up because even though you read it over and over again, recording it yourself, speaking it and listening to it, I would think it would be even harder. And like you just said, you could only get halfway through the first chapter listening to it. And a lot of people don't realize it's, it's a big difference from reading it and hearing it. 

Michael Reed 38:42
>> Yes. We 

Rich Bennett 38:44
>> 

Michael Reed 38:44
don't. 

Rich Bennett 38:44
Wow. >> Man. 

Michael Reed 38:45
>> And, 

Rich Bennett 38:46
hmm, 

Michael Reed 38:48
I don't know if I'll ever get to a place where I could listen to the whole thing. And if I don't, you know, another thing with grief is we, we have to give ourselves grace. 

Rich Bennett 39:00
>> Yeah. 

Michael Reed 39:00
>> On our, on our journey. And I, I have to have enough grace to say, if I can't listen to it, that's okay, you know, I, I don't have to. I already know the story because it's up here, you know. 

Rich Bennett 39:15
>> I'm glad you mentioned grace too, because in the one chapter, you actually write about wrestling with faith. You know, yelling at God, questioning him. And I think, which I believe this is something we all do when we're in grief. >> But how did faith actually evolve for you through to fire an a**? 

Michael Reed 39:40
>> So, my wife 

struggled a lot. She, she was molested as a child for many years. And 

she struggled with addiction, she was bipolar, she had split personalities, she had hallucinations. 

And 

whenever we would talk over the years, that I knew when she was done talking, when she would say to me, you don't understand because you've never been through the things that 

Rich Bennett 40:31
through. 

Michael Reed 40:31
I've been 

Rich Bennett 40:31
>> Right. 

Michael Reed 40:33
>> And you're right. Constance, you're right, but I realized after the fires, 

now I have her PTSD. 

Rich Bennett 40:46
Wow. 

Michael Reed 40:46
Now I have her depressed and now I have her anxiety. And if my job as her husband is to carry those burdens for her so that she can have eternal 

Rich Bennett 40:58
so be it. 

Michael Reed 41:00
I will bear that weight every day for 

Rich Bennett 41:02
my 

Michael Reed 41:02
the 

Rich Bennett 41:02
life. 

Michael Reed 41:02
rest of 

Rich Bennett 41:03
Yeah. 

Which has a husband that's something that we should be doing anyways. 

Michael Reed 41:13
Yeah. So despite everything she had been through, I remember one day, I literally out loud yelled at God. And I said, why didn't you let me save my wife? And he said, son, you did save her. Because you held her hand every day until it was time for me to hold it. 

Rich Bennett 41:35
Oh my God. 

Michael Reed 41:39
And I said, fuck you. Why didn't you let me save my daughters? And he said, wife's biggest fear was being alone. So now she never has to be alone again. 

Rich Bennett 41:52
Wow. 

Michael Reed 41:53
And I said, fuck you again at the top of my lungs and I completely turned my back on 

them. 

It's hard to, it's hard to realize that the bad things that happen to us are predetermined. 

So I just, 

you know, I don't think I ever lost my core faith, you know, I never chastised God. I never, yeah, I never denied he even existed. I just didn't want to talk to him. I'm mad. 

sure. 

Rich Bennett 42:59
I make 

Michael Reed 42:59
And then one day, one day a couple of years ago, it just again, it was just one of those moments of epiphany. 

If I'm not mistaken, I had a butterfly land on me at work one day. I had a lady bug land on me at work one day and the owl came out that night. So I got all three signs in one day. 

Rich Bennett 43:19
Wow. 

Michael Reed 43:19
And I'm just sitting outside looking at these owls that are five feet from me. And I just heard a whisper in the wind that said, I've been using your girls to get to you. 

Son, I have been here the whole 

Rich Bennett 43:45
time. 

Michael Reed 43:48
And that was when I realized that God was still with me. 

Rich Bennett 43:53
He wasn't letting go. 

Michael Reed 44:02
And I finally just said, okay, God, tell me what you want me to do. 

And here we are now. 

Rich Bennett 44:14
Wow. 

Sometimes we never understand why he does the things that he does. But we always, we don't always know. We know eventually, there's a bigger plan for it, which is why he does the things that he does. 

Man, I have to remember to start leaving a box of tissue next to my computer when I do these things, man, holy cow. 

Michael Reed 44:51
And listen, 

Rich Bennett 44:52
Man. 

Michael Reed 44:53
everybody out listening, especially men, listen to me very carefully. Do not hide your pain inside of you. 

Rich Bennett 45:03
Do

Michael Reed 45:06
I don't care if it's your mom or your dad that you have to talk to or your spouse or your partner or a pastor or a friend. It is okay to cry. 

Rich Bennett 45:21
Here's something that somebody told me a while ago. And first of all, I thought they were crazy, but it makes sense. Men that hide that pain that don't show the tears that a lot of times don't even show the love. That's a weakness is a big weakness when you can shed those tears, when you can let the pain go when you can talk about it. That's the one of the biggest strengths that you have. That really does take strength and courage for a lot of men. And it shouldn't. It should not take courage. I mean, we should be open about. We should be able to do that with no problem with me. It took me a while to learn, but oh my god, it feels wow. It does feel when you do. 

Michael Reed 46:19
It's a societal thing. It's a cultural thing. Men are 

Rich Bennett 46:26
the 

Michael Reed 46:26
dominant ones. And they can handle every situation. I 

believe 

the true sign of a man is somebody that's willing to 

acknowledge the scars on hearts. 

It is. 

The scars can't heal themselves. 

Rich Bennett 46:59
No. 

Michael Reed 47:01
And 

I've had a lot of people that I've privately worked with over the years. Just one-on-one. 

Men that would get to that crossroad of. 

So you're telling me it's okay to talk about these things. 

Rich Bennett 47:27
Yeah. 

Michael Reed 47:28
Nice idea. I had one person to reach out to me. He went through sexual abuse as a child. And in his 30s now, 

he still hadn't gotten for yet. 

Rich Bennett 47:49
Right. 

Michael Reed 47:50
So we picked it apart and 

he's now forgiven the person that did it and 

Rich Bennett 48:04
that's a big 

Michael Reed 48:04
He's 

Rich Bennett 48:04
step 

Michael Reed 48:04
the 

Rich Bennett 48:05
there. 

Michael Reed 48:06
happiest. He's the happiest. He's been in his life and 

it wasn't me that didn't you know, you have to do the work yourself. 

Rich Bennett 48:16
Yeah, yeah, 

Michael Reed 48:18
but just to be a part of that process with him just, 

Rich Bennett 48:26
so you're 

Michael Reed 48:26
one you know, 

Rich Bennett 48:28
so you're doing more than just the zipline stuff now right? 

Michael Reed 48:32
Oh yeah, yeah yeah I um got about a year and a half to go before I graduate but I'll be a licensed therapist at that point. Um and I'm not really sure what I want to do with it yet. I. 

I we happened. 

Rich Bennett 48:52
And here we it's funny because I just had a guest on we record it yesterday and we were talking about and she's a therapist and one of the things that I think that needs to happen is no matter what stage you're licensed in you should be able to talk to people in any state because let's say if you have a client patient whatever whatever you'd like to call them they're you're still in Tennessee right? 

Michael Reed 49:21
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 49:22
All right so if you have somebody there in Tennessee but they decide that they want to move to another state or even another country for that matter but they they're really making progress talking to you then they should still be able to. And I think I think she was saying that they're they're working on some type of legislation where that will happen and it needs to. And I think the other thing with you once you become a licensed therapist if you haven't thought about it or if you're not already doing it I can see you and I think your daughters and your wife can see you doing this too. Going around whether it's talking to small groups or big groups or even on a TEDx stage talking to people and putting the word out there and helping them because the book definitely is and you know when you're when you're out there talking just on the different podcast you are you're making a big difference just sitting here talking to you alone the feelings that are coming back to me about you know the ones I've lost they feel so good. 

Michael Reed 50:37
My dream 

I knew you were going to say that I knew it. 

Rich Bennett 50:49
Wait a minute do you have telescopic powers here Michael? 

Michael Reed 50:51
I'm an empath 

Rich Bennett 50:54
okay 

Michael Reed 50:55
yeah actually got stronger after the fires. 

Rich Bennett 50:59
Oh wow 

Michael Reed 51:00
yeah I've always seen myself on a stage 

and you know there's thousands of different kinds of therapy but I'm a huge proponent of group therapy I really believe that the more people you get together the more you can help and 

Rich Bennett 51:22
yes 

Michael Reed 51:26
that's I didn't want to leak the dream out too early because I don't want to jinx anything but 

you just said exactly what my dream has been since I published the book 

Rich Bennett 51:41
really 

I'm telling you it's going to I mean you're already doing the stuff I getting on the podcast 

if time if time allows it I can even see you doing a podcast about this you know about I want to say not I don't want to say the million stages of grief I want to say the million stages of I could 

Michael Reed 52:07
absolutely 

Rich Bennett 52:07
just see that as the podcast title yeah I could see you doing that and man I think it'll blow up and if that if you ever ever think about doing that you need any help you let me know because that's something I would be more than happy to help you I'm probably going to get a lot of other people that have been on my show that will be a producer podcast yelling at me but that's okay 

Michael Reed 52:33
yeah that would 

Rich Bennett 52:35
that 

Michael Reed 52:35
would be great because I don't know the first thing about the process at all 

Rich Bennett 52:41
oh it takes time it's a lot of work but the thing is the your message it would be worth it because even if one person hears if you could change one person's life that's enough that's enough um before I get to my last question first of all tell everybody where they can purchase the book 

Michael Reed 53:05
uh the best place to get it is on Amazon again it's the million stages of grief I also have a website it's the millionstages.com there's a little more information about my story on there there's links to all the different 

Rich Bennett 53:23
you got 

Michael Reed 53:24
versions of the book there's hardcover paperback audible all that 

Rich Bennett 53:29
and that's where the blog is too 

Michael Reed 53:31
I had a blog, uhm, I put it on hold for just a little bit, just because I'm so busy with work. I 

Rich Bennett 53:39
right right 

Michael Reed 53:39
can't check it every single day, so I didn't want to leave anybody behind. But, uh, uh, any events I have coming up, I keep updated on there. 

Yeah, I'll be able to add that to it too. I wanted to create a safe space, you know, that the very bottom of the website is a contact form. I wanted to create a safe space for people to 

start a conversation. 

And, uhm, I would love to grow that into like a weekly session with just random strangers. I'm going to talk about this part of grief today and, and let everybody just tell their stories, because we can learn so much more from each other than you can ever learn in a textbook or in a college or an university and, and uhm, so yeah, there's unlimited possibilities. I'm just not ready to jump into that yet. 

Rich Bennett 55:06
The good thing is too if the group is with the group idea, because a lot of times when it's one on one not not every, you know, one person may not open up. But in that group setting, whether it's group therapy or like would you just discuss that the one group where people can go back and forth. Somebody might be able to connect with somebody else in the group a lot better. And they'll tend to open up more, and then it just, 

Michael Reed 55:33
and what got me. What got me to start thinking about this was I was on Instagram one day, and I came across this random post and it was a, it was a conference room. And this lady is standing at the front and she's making a joke about her husband's passing 

and in this ballroom is a whole bunch of woodhouse. So I did some digging and I found and I'm gonna give my use plug here. I'm not affiliated with them, but there's this thing called Camp Widow. And they do 

Rich Bennett 56:09
really 

Michael Reed 56:10
every year. And there's presenters and there's different topics and it's where would those can go to unite with other wouldows and this woman was telling a story that after her husband passed she had to switch. The cell phone into her name and the person on the other end says well we need to talk to the person whose name is on the account. And she said I just told you that was my husband and he's dead. And all of these women in this audience just bust out laughing with tears pouring down their face. Because they they've all experienced those moments too and I'm sitting there watching this balling my eyes out because I had to go through that. And I realized that this woman somehow just took the worst moment of her life and made people laugh. 

That's what I wanted. That's 

Rich Bennett 57:08
want. 

Michael Reed 57:08
what I 

Rich Bennett 57:08
Wow. 

Michael Reed 57:11
There is so much power 

Rich Bennett 57:13
in that you are. 

Michael Reed 57:16
And that that changed me that that motivated me that that drove me and I have spoken to them. 

About doing some stuff with them next year. Nothing's official yet. But 

Rich Bennett 57:28
yeah, you got you got ideas go through my head now. 

Michael Reed 57:33
And and I've said this a couple of times. Oh yeah, there's so much there is so much power in him. And there is so much power in the tragedies that change who we are. 

Yeah, one of one of the things that, you know, in the moment, I was furious at the time, but looking back 

my wife applied for disability years before the fire she she didn't work, she didn't drive. 

And of course, the first two times, the first two times you apply for it, you're automatically denied and 

Rich Bennett 58:17
Right. 

Michael Reed 58:17
you get dragged and dragged and dragged through the system and may be a week or two after the fires, I get a phone call from Social Security. Congratulations, your wife's been approved. 

Rich Bennett 58:34
God. 

Michael Reed 58:36
And I went off on this poor woman. And if she's listening right now, I'm sorry. I, I'm sorry I went off on you, but looking back. It took her dying to get approved for Social Security. Are you kidding me. You know, and there, there is some comic relief in that. If you look at it, from a very wide lens that the system is so messed up that 

Rich Bennett 59:09
yeah, 

Michael Reed 59:09
she had to pass away to finally get approved for her bits, you know, and and. But you know, we all have little moments like that where when you look back. You have to laugh because if not, you'll cry. You know, 

Rich Bennett 59:24
and yeah. 

Michael Reed 59:25
The video I saw on Instagram just touched me so much that somebody had the power to take their darkest moment and make people laugh. And that was inspiring. And and 

Rich Bennett 59:40
I'm telling you, man, you are bringing back memories to me. When you just mentioned the social security thing, my older brother before he passed, he kept talking about how he couldn't wait to collect his social security. And he got approved and he when he turned 60, when so he turned 62 in February, I think he got approved afterwards because he didn't get his first check yet. He passed away in March before 

Michael Reed 1:00:10
um, 

Rich Bennett 1:00:10
check even came. Even came. I was like, are you and that's why when I turned 62, I was like, you know what, no, I'm applying for it because you never know. You never know. It's some people say, oh, no, wait till you're 75, you'll get more. Yeah, if I'm here when I'm 75, 

Michael Reed 1:00:30
yeah, 

Rich Bennett 1:00:31
you don't know. Do it now. I can't remember if I asked you this or not. But is there anything you would have before I get to my last question? 

Michael Reed 1:00:40
No, no, I'm, 

Rich Bennett 1:00:44
you know, wait, I'm all right. I'm I'm on a string here because usually I ask people to pick a number between one and a hundred and I never know what the last question is. 

But I want... there's a different question. I want to ask you if that's okay. 

Michael Reed 1:01:04
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:07
If your daughters could hear you today, what would you want them to know about the man you've become? 

Michael Reed 1:01:36
I would want them to know 

that every waking moment since I lost them, has been for them. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:55
And I do believe they knew that because from what you explain to me with the owl and the butterfly and the ladybug, your wife and your daughters know you are listening to them. And like I said before, they are proud of everything you're doing and your help of people and you're gonna continue helping people for a long, long time, a very long time. So Michael, I want to thank you so much. Anytime you want to come back on, the door is always open. And like I said, that little hamster is running on that wheel in my head because I'm getting some ideas going through now where I know you're going to be on again. Thanks a lot, Michael. 

Michael Reed 1:02:47
Thank you brother. I appreciate it so much. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:49
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love it if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations withrichbennett.com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care, be kind and keep the conversations going. You know, it takes a lot to put a podcast together. And my sponsors help add a lot, but I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing software, the hosting and so forth. There's a lot that goes into putting this together. So I want to thank them. And if you can please please visit their websites, visit their businesses, support them however you can. So please visit the following Full full circle boards. Nobody does charcuterie like full circle boards. Visit them at fullcircleboards.com. Sincerely, Sincerely Sincerely, Sawyer photography. Live in the moment. They'll capture it. Visit them at sincerelysawyer.com. The Jopatown Lions Club. Serve in the community since 1965. Visit them at JopatownLionsClub. org and don't forget the E at the end of Jopatown because because they're extraordinary.