Revolutionizing Policing Through Humanity with Joe Smarro

Wendy & Rich 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning 10 this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared a episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we've shared laughs, tears, and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next 10 years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios Harford County Living Presence conversations with Rich Bennett. 

No. No, no. It's just like who is. 

Rich Bennett 1:00
So what if the solution to crisis response isn't more force, but more humanity? On today's episode of conversations with Rich Bennett, we're joined by Joe Smaro, a Marine Corps combat veteran turned nationally recognized mental health advocate. You might know him from a winning documentary Ernie and Joe crisis cops, or his unforgettable TEDx talk, I see you. But behind the uniform and accolades is a man on a mission to revolutionize public safety through compassion, courage, and connection. Joe's going to share his gripping journey from battlefield to be a why he walked away for the badge to build solution point plus, a movement dedicated to mental health training and suicide prevention for first responders. One pack the real life lessons in his book Unarmed, explored a future of policing with empathy at the center. And here how his work is reshaping communities nationwide. This isn't just about law enforcement. This is about how we treat each other when it matters most. First of all, it's always in honor to talk to a brother. So simplified Joe and welcome to the show man. 

Joe Smarro 2:15
Simper five brother. It's great to be here Rich. I appreciate it. Excited about the conversation for 

Rich Bennett 2:20
sure. Look, anytime I get a brother on, I gotta ask why the Marine Corps? What made you decide you wanted to be the best, the elite? 

Joe Smarro 2:32
Yeah. So probably not the most sexy story. But, um, my, so my father was in the Navy. And clearly as a teenager, I couldn't follow his footsteps because, yeah, what does dad know? And there was really no guidance about it and truth be told and I'm happy to get into this. But the only reason I joined the military at all was because my best friend in high school at the time was he was in the delayed entry program. And being from upstate in New York, it wasn't like I'm in San Antonio. It's military city USA. A healthy percentage of every graduating class goes to the military. But like it was a big deal. I don't think anyone else from our class joined the military that I that I recall maybe one other. But so he was in the delayed entry program. And he got the recruiter to come talk to me and just sold me the dream. Told me that the Marine Corps has a soccer team, which is what I wanted to do is go play soccer in college. And so I don't want to give away the spoiler yet. But I know it's going to come up naturally in our conversation. But there was a need for me to like do something right after high school. And so yeah, the recruiter did a phenomenal job. And 

Rich Bennett 3:43
sails 

Joe Smarro 3:44
it happened to be a Marine Corps recruiter that came in. So I mean, this was in, this was in 2000. So it was pre 9/11. It was much easier for sure. And yeah, I agreed to it four days after graduating high school. I was on the footprints down in Paris Island. And I was like, what the hell did I get myself into? But yeah, it was it was the best and worst times of life for sure. 

Rich Bennett 4:08
Would you do over again? 

Joe Smarro 4:11
Knowing what I know now, that's a tough man. The military for sure. I think knowing what I know now. And again, I'm proud that I was in the Marine Corps. As you said, it's the elitist, the best of the best. Every branch knows it. They just might not acknowledge it. But I think just with the wisdom that I have right now, I would probably choose like the space force if I could honestly only because I see those skills is the most transferable to getting a really healthy paying job after a four year or five year stint. 

Rich Bennett 4:48
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 4:48
The Marines is great. If you want to be a knuckle dragger your whole life and just kind of have the grunt mindset and figure things out, I see problem, I fix problem. But yeah, I think intellect and again, to the point you made at your intro, Rich, I genuinely care about compassion and humanity. I didn't learn that from the Marine Corps. 

Rich Bennett 5:10
Oh, no. 

Joe Smarro 5:11
Love your brother and keep them alive, but there was no genuine other than survival. There was no real like depth to that and intimacy in those relationships. And so that to me is important 

Rich Bennett 5:24
now. What were you, 311? 

Joe Smarro 5:26
No, so the Marine Corps recruiter did a great job. I said I wanted to play soccer and he 

Rich Bennett 5:31
I didn't know there was an MOS for soccer. 

Joe Smarro 5:33
Yeah, there isn't and so he goes, well, you have to have a job. I'm like, I don't want a job. I'm 17. I don't want a job man. Like I just want to play soccer. He's like, all right. I'll get you something easy. So okay, cool. He said, where do you want to be stationed? I was like Northeast where I'm from. He said, all right. Do you want to deploy? I was like never. So he goes, all right. So Northeast non deployable, easy job playing soccer. I was like, yes. So he's like, I got you man. He drew up the contract and I go to boot camp. I find out that I'm going to be not a no three, but a 3.0 which is a 30, 43 and I'm like, what is this? Oh, you're in supply. I'm like, I don't even know what that means. Cool. But not only do they put me in supply, they put me in supply and what they call a victor unit. So now I'm in an infantry unit as a 30, 43 in Camp Horno with first Battalion 4th Marines in Pendleton, which is not the Northeast. 

Rich Bennett 6:24
Oh, shit. 

Joe Smarro 6:25
And yeah, so I was in an infantry unit. I was a grunt with a credit card truly. And so while we were home in states, I would do the open purchases, the contracts by the grunt tape, the cami netting, all the stuff, the loop hold scopes for the snipers. And then whenever we deployed, we were like, I was in the invasion of Iraq and 03. And we were with the first Marine Division and pushed up. And so they took my credit card, gave me a rifle and said go get some. And yeah. And so I did. And truth be told, I have not agreed to that. Because, you know, I didn't, I was smart enough as a kid to realize like, yeah, I don't want to do like I didn't, I didn't enjoy camping and 

Rich Bennett 7:06
Right. 

Joe Smarro 7:06
pick nicks outside. And like, so it just was like, no, I didn't want to be a grunt. So I would have never signed up for that. But the fact that I got to do it, I got to like play Marine. And then I got to also learn a skill about government contracts, budgeting, finance, so that actually helped me out. So I kind of, I got a skill and something that I really could be proud of. While war, I would say shaped me and not all for the better. It definitely like made life very difficult for me. I'm also incredibly grateful that I had the experience of combat. 

Rich Bennett 7:41
One of the things I did notice before 9/11 happened, it seemed like for years a lot of, and I'm not talking about just Marine Corps recruiters. I'm talking about recruiters in general. They were, a lot of them were pushing get the college education. 

Joe Smarro 7:59
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:00
In the military get, you know, get the experience. And when and correct me if I'm wrong, because you were in at this time, but when 9/11 hit a lot of people that were serving in the military were upset because they said they not sign up for this shit when it was time for them to go overseas. Did you see a lot of them? 

Joe Smarro 8:20
I won't say I saw a lot, but I saw some and, 

Rich Bennett 8:22
right, 

Joe Smarro 8:23
what was even more interesting to me, because again, I'll be honest and you can call me coward if you want to, but when, 

Rich Bennett 8:29
no, it's what you were promised. 

Joe Smarro 8:31
but when, when shit really popped off, and we found out, okay, because we were scheduled for a routine west pack six month deployment January 

Rich Bennett 8:38
Oh, 

Joe Smarro 8:38
of '02. And so when 9/11 happened, we found ourselves leaving and the end of October, November, so it was only a couple months early, but we realized like, oh, this is a very different mood now. 

Rich Bennett 8:50
yeah, 

Joe Smarro 8:50
And I remember, I was like, yeah, I'm not excited about this, like getting sent over to Afghanistan at the time, which was our first deployment. I'm like, yeah, this doesn't feel fun for me, but what was wild is my nco guy named Kendall Abernathy. He's from emerald o texas. And he was my nco. He was, he was about to get out. And he was begging that, because he was like poster child marines marine, and he was begging that they would let him extend just to go. for the deployment. And they were like, well, no, you have to do a whole contract. He's like, yeah, I don't want to do a whole contract. I just want to go do one deployment. Give me like a one year extension. I'll get out and they're like, no. And I'm like, give him my spot. Like he can go for me if he wants. Like, Jesus, if he's that motivated. And I'm a, I'm a e1 e2 at the time, right? Like, and he's, he's an e5. And I'm like, yeah, let him go, man. I don't care. Let this guy go. But so, and I did see some people that were especially when we were over in Iraq, because now this was our 

Rich Bennett 9:51
Yeah, 

Joe Smarro 9:52
second deployment. And Afghanistan, which was such a joke the first time. You know, it was this whole weapons of mass destruction. Nothing was found. Bidden Laden was obviously on the run. And we couldn't find him for years. And so then it was like, Oh, we're going to switch to Saddam. Now Saddam is the guy. He's got these weapons, weren't finding the weapons. And now people are dying and you're seeing carnage. And 

Rich Bennett 10:15
yeah, 

Joe Smarro 10:15
it was like, okay, I don't know that I understand what the the point of this is like I get they hit our towers, but who and why? And this is like pure pandemonium now. And people were getting very frustrated. People were getting, because again, it's, it's information overwhelmed. Like, people that are just like patriotism. Like for the country. And it's like, you don't even know what the hell that means. Like this, you're, you're finding politicians warfare here. 

Rich Bennett 10:41
exactly. 

Joe Smarro 10:42
And, and there's much more at stake than you can realize or appreciate. And so there's so much just like brainwashing for lack of better term to just feel like. And again, I people are going to take this out of context and and whatever and have a field day with it. But I just feel like a lot of people join out of need necessity. Because it's like if I didn't join the military, then really what would I be doing and where would I be working. 

Rich Bennett 11:10
Right. 

Joe Smarro 11:10
But now that I'm in the military suddenly, I'm elevated to this like elite type status. Then I get deployed over to someone's country. And now I'm giving like some type of attention and accolades of like I'm a hero. And it's like, well, like are you really though? 

Rich Bennett 11:24
And 

Joe Smarro 11:24
again, some legitimately yes. But not, not everyone like I don't claim to be a hero. I was just over there trying to survive. And 

Rich Bennett 11:32
right. 

Joe Smarro 11:32
The first time I shot and killed an Iraqi soldier. I, I broke inside. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun for me. The fact that I was celebrated for like really fuck me up where I was like, yeah, man, that I just want to go home. Like this sucks, man. Being shot at, have an explosion happen around you, seeing people die. This is not fun. And I don't feel like Rura America. I feel like no, no, we're going to can die out here. And I just want to go home. And that's the truth of it for me. And so 

Rich Bennett 12:00
yeah. 

Joe Smarro 12:00
Yeah. I mean, people have a different experience. I'm sure. But that's that's mine. 

Rich Bennett 12:05
Well, which brings me to this point because you're a combat combat veteran. And when you got out, you decided to join the police department, which to me, correct me, I'm from wrong, but I mean, this is what I believe. When it comes to the police, they're at war all the time. And again, you mentioned and it's true. With the military, it's always a political war that were fake, you know, that we're in. But it seems like, and especially lately, with the police, it was a political war as well. Your hands are tied. What made you decide to when you got out to join the police department? 

Joe Smarro 12:47
Yeah. So and I'm happy to have this conversation. Right. I would disagree that. 

Rich Bennett 12:53
Okay. 

Joe Smarro 12:53
Our our police are not at war all the time. Our policing in America is 95% boredom and five percent excitement that the media loves to jump on the backs of and catastrophize and so do some police. 

Rich Bennett 13:09
I'm glad you said that. Thank you. 

Joe Smarro 13:10
Yeah. No, no. I mean, I I did it for 15 years, not 30. 

Rich Bennett 13:14
Right. 

Joe Smarro 13:14
But again, that's a good enough sample to know and in the seventh largest city. Now again, I promise you, it's very different in places like Chicago. Now 

Rich Bennett 13:23
Right. 

Joe Smarro 13:23
if you're a cop in the south side of Chicago, yeah, you're running and gun and daily, for sure. If you people don't realize the average police size in America is about 10 cops. There's 18,000 police departments in this country. Most of them don't have more than 20 officers. But we tend to immediately think of like NYPD at 36,000 Chicago, you know, L. A. Even San Antonio, Houston, you know, Houston has about 5,000 cops. Our department has about 2400 officers and where the where the 12th largest police department in the country. And I would say that while San Antonio doesn't, they wouldn't admit to this because we make, I don't know, 80% of our revenue on tourism. Like, this isn't a super incredibly safe city. There's a lot of crime that's happening. It's only gotten worse over the last decade, for sure. And and 95% of policing is still boredom. And so. I appreciate that you said that, that line of like, you know, cops are at war constantly, because that is the general consensus from a lot of people is like, 

Rich Bennett 14:29
mm-hmm. 

Right. 

Joe Smarro 14:48
ideas that we have is cops believe every call is dangerous because we're at war. The citizens are like, oh my god, the cops are bringing warfare to us. We must then protect and defend ourselves. And we have so much friction because we're not humanizing either side of this. 

Rich Bennett 15:03
Mm-hmm. 

Joe Smarro 15:03
Citizens are struggling to humanize the police. The police are struggling to humanize the people. And again, I think that media plays a very dangerous role in masturbating both sides of this. And it is both sides because again, the police are not, you know, clean from any blame in this either because of the way we train, the way we think, the way we talk, the way we act, a lot of this stuff, we we definitely play into this as well. Now, to the other part of your question, the only reason like many military people that get out like veterans, the reason I joined the police department was because of need, like, what am I going to do? I'm 22. I didn't have a college degree at the time. I don't have any real skills except I don't die. And I really like the fact that I get paid every on the first and 15th and I have health insurance to take care of my, my kids. So okay, what else is going to do that for me? Public safety. And it's just a natural leap to go from the military to public safety, whether it's police, it's fire, it's EMS, it's corrections. And so that's what I did. It was just path least resistance. And so I applied and got in. And yeah, my first year, I was like, yeah, like, this is not what I thought it was going to be. Then I had a terrible situation where I had an in custody death because of excited Delerium back when that used to be allowed and was medically acceptable. You know, and that was 364 days into my policing career, which set me into a dark, dark place. Yeah. And then, and then when I went to CIT training, which is the 40-hour crisis intervention team training, that's when I was like, whoa, this is what police work should be. Like this is just learning about people like actually helping them out. Like this is why I got into this. Not like people are running from the cops. Very rarely are they bringing the fight to the cops. Now again, I know there's madness happening right now in our country and everyone's holding the line as they say and we've got protest and riots and everything else going on 

Rich Bennett 17:09
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 17:09
as of the recording of this in the end of June. So not sure when you're air in, but yes, no, we're mid-June. And just as timestamp this is, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of tension right now in our country. And there's a lot of friction between first responders, public safety, government, and community. And a lot of weaponization of each sides and all sides of it. And it's a problem. 

Rich Bennett 17:36
Yeah. Well, and the thing is, and this is something that I want to go back to the Marine Corps a minute and then also, and actually combine it in. When you got out of the Marine Corps, now I know this wasn't around when I got out. Was there anything, anything in place in the military to help you adapt to going back to becoming a civilian because it's hard. Yo, when you do that, if there's nobody, I'm talking about for your mental health, if there's nothing there to help you adapt to get back into civilian world, it's tough to do. Was there something in place in the Marine Corps at that time? Then, advance even into the police department. Was there something you got out to adapt? 

Joe Smarro 18:24
Yeah. So the politically correct answer is yes, there's a, I think it's called 

Rich Bennett 18:28
Okay. 

Joe Smarro 18:28
cap sets, the transition assistance program. 

Rich Bennett 18:32
Yes. 

Joe Smarro 18:33
Yeah. So that exists. And it's, it's a quick training of like how to write a resume. But you brought up mental health. Absolutely not. Now, again, I got out in 2004. I'm aware that and again, this is why my, my response to your question about what I do it again, there's a lot of layers to this 

Rich Bennett 18:51
right. 

Joe Smarro 18:52
because, I feel like the Air Force, for example, does a really good job of preparing the transitioning service member, even to the point where they will get them service connected if they qualify before they get out. They'll 

Rich Bennett 19:04
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 19:04
make sure they have everything set up in line for them for their disability stuff for education. When I left, like, I'm still to this day because I'm service connected disabled. And there's still benefits that I'm learning about as of like last month, and I've been out now for 20 years. So, the program, I'm not familiar with it as it is today, maybe it's gotten more robust. I would still struggle to believe, especially in the Marine Corps, that they do anywhere near enough on the mental health side 

Rich Bennett 19:35
of 

Joe Smarro 19:37
preparing that transition. And it goes beyond two of like, just on the PTSD and trauma side of this, but even with like, purpose, right? Like, in the military you really believe, even if you're struggling with clarity, you believe you have a purpose. You believe that there's camaraderie. You believe that, like, truly. And, and again, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but like, in the military you don't see race. Like, it's, we all, 

Rich Bennett 20:04
got... 

Joe Smarro 20:05
we 

Rich Bennett 20:05
We're all green. 

Joe Smarro 20:06
yeah, right in the Marine Corps. Yeah, like, you know, we're all green. And we love each other because of the uniform we wear, what we represent, like we're Americans, we are all in this together. Once you get on the other side of that, like, you quickly realize, like, that is just not the way the United States of America operates on the civilian side. Everything is highlighted in differences. You see, everything very different. You're treated based on how you are, who you know, what you look like, what you have, what you don't have. And so then it very quickly becomes like a classification system, whereas in the military, like, yeah, it's based on rank, but even then, like, there's this family style, love and cohesion. 

Rich Bennett 20:49
Yeah, 

Joe Smarro 20:50
That, I just don't know that there's any corporation or company. And for sure, not in the public safety, like police departments would love to say that they mimic the military and its family. It's not. It's cutthroat. It is brutal. The, the, the greatest enemy of any public safety agency is the, is the sworn members of that agency. They will, they will turn on each other so quick and not have each other's back and gossip behind each other's back and hold each other out to dry. And it's, it's horrible. And yeah, it's just, that's very different. And so I don't think there's a good enough job or enough emphasis placed on preparing the mindset for the realities that you're about to enter. 

Rich Bennett 21:34
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 21:35
And, and how to take care of yourself, like, truly how to take care of yourself beyond, like, go get a therapist. I'm an advocate for that. But that's not enough for everybody. And we really need the skills and the insights to know how to help ourselves. 

Rich Bennett 21:51
With, with the mental health part, what, because you're a mental health advocate. What made you decide to, well, become an advocate for that? 

Joe Smarro 22:02
Yeah. I guess being a consumer myself. And even before I knew I was, right? So, I, when I went through the crisis intervention training, the training really hit home for me where I was like, okay, this feels like what we should be doing. So then I started treating people different. Then we started a mental health unit. It was a pilot program and then it became a full time when it went to a full time unit, which was just for officers. I applied and was fortunate to get selected. And so right away, every one of my calls was a mental health call. And I, like, rapidly developed a deep passion for the mental health community. And simultaneously, I recognized how much of a hypocrite I was because for Now, the story is a bit disjointed. So let me, if you don't mind, Rich, let me do a 

Rich Bennett 22:54
sure. 

Joe Smarro 22:54
high level background. So childhood, Joe tomorrow, horrible, traumatic life, fathers in the Navy. He's on a deployment, married to my mom. She has an affair with another sailor. He's not only having a affair with my mom, but he starts molesting me. And I'm seven years old, right? So, 

I'm giving cliff notes, but at some point, you know, I make an outcry. It doesn't get received. And so then I try to set my bed on fire. I set my bed on fire. The fire department shows up. They put it out. And the fireman comes out. Now, I have a belief that people are doing the best they can with what they have based on what they know. 

Rich Bennett 23:33
right. 

Joe Smarro 23:33
And so no ill will to the fireman, but he came out real aggressive. It was my first introduction to the knife hand before I got the Marine Corps, Rich. 

Rich Bennett 23:40
Damn! 

Joe Smarro 23:40
So he, I'm seven, right? He comes out and he says, "Young man. If you ever start another fire again, you will spend the rest of your life in prison." Do you understand me? And I was like, whoa. 

Rich Bennett 23:50
You were seven? 

Joe Smarro 23:51
And I'm seven and I'm making an outcry, right? And this is why we teach what we teach in my company is, you know, all behaviors, communication, focus on the person not the problem, 

Rich Bennett 24:02
mm-hmm. 

Joe Smarro 24:02
the connection before correction. We have a whole model of framework of de escalation, maybe it comes up later where we, because of this life experience. Now, because of that. My sister who's 10 at the time, she calls her a grandmother up in New York, my dad's mom, she calls my father. This is 1989. He flies home, finds out there's a whole hoop law. There's the family breaks up. We move up to New York. I didn't go to school my third grade year. I'm in therapy three days a week in and out of court. And my dad in about a 96 hour window or so of 72 hour window learned that his, you know, wife had an affair, his kids been molested. He lost his military career. And so he became a raging alcoholic and violent towards me. And so then I endure like eight years of physical abuse. And so I left home around 15 and started living with friends sleeping over at buddy's houses wherever I could and then 

Rich Bennett 24:58
Jesus, 

Joe Smarro 24:59
yeah, and I promised we're getting towards the end, but my girlfriend 9th grade 10th grade 11th grade my junior year her parents were like hey, I don't know what's going on, but come stay with us for a while I was like all right cool, so I didn't have a job. I played sports. I hated school because I didn't have I didn't have any like parental love I didn't 

Rich Bennett 25:18
Right, 

Joe Smarro 25:19
have guidance. I didn't have mentorship like I was just in survival mode and But I really wanted to thank her parents for giving me some stability and so I was like well. How can I thank them like what could I give them and then it hit me Rich, I was like, oh, I know. I'm gonna get their daughter pregnant Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 25:34
oh shit 

Joe Smarro 25:35
no, not ideal rich. I know. I know not ideal I don't recommend in hindsight. They would have preferred the fruit basket, but My my daughter is 25 now and she's doing great, but that is the spoiler That's why I joined the Marine Corps because my senior year. I became a father and The recruiter came and he said we got you buddy housing health care. Don't worry, so I joined out of necessity I joined the police department out of necessity yeah, so there's a theme here. Now I have my childhood trauma experiences. I have my combat trauma experiences I have my custody death on the police department and now I'm on the mental health unit. Well for eight years After that, Incustity death that I had my first year on I went into a dark, dark place. I was acutely suicidal and I'm not proud of this, but I'm grateful that my vice or my drug was never opiates or alcohol or anything that would have a criminal element But my my vice was women and I had a pornography addiction and I turned to women to validate my very insecure self and because I hated myself so much and I tend to be funny or witty You know, I'd be married or have a girlfriend and I'm like just being myself and girls like oh my God You're so funny and I'm like oh, yeah, you want to touch it? And they would say yes, and I would get caught and then I get divorced so by the time I was 

Rich Bennett 26:59
Wow, 

Joe Smarro 26:59
31 I Had three divorces. I have four kids from three women. I'm paying over three grand a month in child support on a cop salary And I'm on the mental health unit telling people in the community every day If you just take your meds if you just go see your doctor if you just do XYZ your life will be great And I'm going home to an empty apartment going through a divorce addicted to pornography drink in a six pack trying to sleep I was a chitual for human being and I owned that and it was 13 years ago now where I was like okay. I Am responsible for everything that's happening in my life everything is my fault I have to take ownership or nothing's going to change or I just need to kill myself because that's this is never gonna get better And so I walked into the VA and yeah I've never stopped treatment ever since then and that's why the advocacy because the more I was Showing up in this community the more I saw myself and the more I could see myself in them The more I would see them in me and then as I started helping myself and going to therapy and doing all these various treatment modalities I was learning about the brain. I was learning about trauma learning about Internal family systems learning about different things that happened in my life and then I was like yo I am way better cop now because I can help people at such a not doing therapy I'm not diagnosing but there's like some We'll call it street therapy on some level 

Rich Bennett 28:24
right. 

Joe Smarro 28:24
there 

Rich Bennett 28:24
Yeah 

Joe Smarro 28:24
It's crisis work, right and it's like yeah You're not looking for a therapist when you're at your worst moment. You need someone to connect with you in Descalate the situation and I'm really good at that because of the wildlife that I've had Which I'm really grateful for and I and I'll just end with this rich. Which is a statement that I live by which is I've learned to become grateful for the things I wish never happened and it's when you can find gratitude in the things we wish didn't have, especially when you're a victim to something like, yeah, that sucks and I'm sorry, it happened, but when you can learn to find gratitude in it and purpose through it, man, there are so many people that you can help on the other side of that. 

Rich Bennett 29:00
And you're doing that now. 

Joe Smarro 29:02
Amen. 

Rich Bennett 29:03
Holy cow, man, I didn't realize. 

Joe Smarro 29:05
Yeah, as a heavy loader, don't run your brother. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:08
It is, but it's. It reminds me of when I talk to peer recovery specialists, especially that are addiction peer recovery specialists, that's what it kind of reminds me of because they've been through it. So they're better at what they do helping others that are in recovery. 

Joe Smarro 29:26
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 29:26
You've been I mean, hell, you've definitely been through it. 

Joe Smarro 29:29
Right. 

Rich Bennett 29:30
And here it is, you're definitely helping others. And you said you, the porn addiction, everything stopped. What 13 years ago? You said, 

Joe Smarro 29:40
Yeah. Well, 

Rich Bennett 29:41
wow. 

Joe Smarro 29:42
13 years goes when I started my journey. It took me. 

Rich Bennett 29:44
Okay. 

Joe Smarro 29:45
Yeah. Admittedly, I would say, because I still go now, like I still am engaged now, but it probably took me a solid four years to even start like turning the corner. There's a lot of resistance up front. There was a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of like, as this real, what is the point, but I kept going. I just kept going and kept going. And yeah, it just, it took me probably four years to to get to the place where I'm like, all right. And now, even still, why did I keep going for nine years? Because to me, it's not a, it's not a destination. Like it's never something that you just arrive at. It's like, no, no, this is an ongoing process. And life is hard. I realized that maybe I wasn't given a full deck of cards in my own brain in mind. And so now it's, like, how do I learn to leverage? Because if I, if I don't have someone plugged in like a therapist, that I can truly go to and open up to, then I see how quickly I'll resort back to some of my old ways. And it doesn't feel good. And I don't like the consequences. And so yeah, I am very intentional now. 

Rich Bennett 30:49
You could, as I say, in addiction, you could relapse. 

Joe Smarro 30:53
Right. 

Rich Bennett 30:53
And 

Joe Smarro 30:54
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 30:54
you definitely don't want to do that. And this, and this is all because you decide to go to VA. Yeah. That's amazing. Because 

Joe Smarro 31:03
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:03
I mean, you think about how many, many veterans will not go to the, to the VA or search out a VSO for help. 

Joe Smarro 31:11
Yep. Many. And what I would, as someone that advocates, I tell people, listen, are you not going to the VA because you had a bad experience or because you heard of someone else that had a bad experience. So many people in my experience adopt their beliefs based on someone else's experience. And it's like, well, if, well, Rich, my, my buddy Rich, I've been friends with Rich Bennett now 16 years. And we're both veterans. He went to the VA back in 2007. And he told me it was horrible. So I refused to go. If that's how you live your life, you are, you're going to have a pretty miserable life. I would imagine because you're not allowing yourself to have your own experiences. Go try it for yourself because here's the reality. The VA doesn't suck. There are some people in the VA that suck and there are some amazing people in the VA that are, that are incredible. So it's just about person to person. Just as you can go to the best inpatient private pay, like the greatest facility in the country, I promise you they're going to have people there that you're not going to jive with either. So when you understand the Arab is a relationship, it's not a location. And when you understand that it's like, yeah, I, this isn't everything, right? Like I can go to Starbucks and have a great experience or I can catch someone on a bad day. And they're, they treat me terrible. If a Starbucks employee treats me shitty one day, I'm not going to boycott Starbucks. I'm going to 

Rich Bennett 32:30
Right. 

Joe Smarro 32:30
say that person had a bad day. And I might not go to that person. But I'm going to go to another Starbucks like in too many people. It's like one bad thing happens. And they're like, I'll never again, I'm it's so black and white. And I'm like yikes. Like is that really how you want to live your life? 

Rich Bennett 32:45
Yeah. There was a don't believe in second chances. 

Joe Smarro 32:48
Yeah. And I, I'm a, I believe in the VA because the VA saved my life. And now I'll be honest, I don't go to the VA anymore for my mental health. I have a private one, but I still go to the VA for my medical stuff. And I will admit it is a pain in the ass on the medical side. They don't make anything easy and I'm grateful to be covered and have medical coverage through them. But it's almost like, Hey, you get free medical for your service connection. But we're going to make it super inconvenient. You have to call three people. You have to schedule one appointment to get another appointment with another appointment. And it's like, what a, what a horribly inefficient system. But again, I don't blame the people for that. Right. And so I, I have a lot of grace and and gratitude that that I just even have access to 

Rich Bennett 33:33
care. Well, and the other thing is too and I'm bad at this because I still have never gone to the VA and I need to, especially since you know, I had to drink that good old French water from Camp Le Jun when I was in. But I've even had a VSO on before and it's amazing. The benefits that are out there that a lot of veterans don't even know about when it comes to this. Prime example is with you. I don't know if you are around the burn pits when you served? 

Joe Smarro 34:08
Yes. So actually sadly, my lieutenant, while we were deployed, Jason Howard, he died 

probably three years ago now. But he had, I think it's Gail Blastoma or a Gail Blastoma. But it's this rare like brain tumor that's cancer in the brain, but they attributed it to the burn pits. And so yes, very much. And I'm on that registry. I signed up for it because we were over there. Stirring shit. 

Rich Bennett 34:37
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 34:38
JP 5 fuel and all this just like just burning our trap 

Rich Bennett 34:42
like every day normal thing. 

Joe Smarro 34:44
Now, absolutely. Yeah. It's terrible. 

Rich Bennett 34:46
Well, it's like, I mean, one of the first things they tell you when you join the military, you're expendable. expendable hell, we're freaking guinea pigs man. That's the way I look 

Joe Smarro 34:56
at. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 34:58
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Joe Smarro 36:26
I did not. 

Rich Bennett 36:27
Get it. Okay. 

Joe Smarro 36:28
Yeah. Ernie and Willie did. Two officers. They are the ones that have. I mean, if a really honest, the chief is the one that ultimately founds anything, like it's his department. 

Rich Bennett 36:37
Oh yeah. 

Joe Smarro 36:38
But they did advocate. Ernie and Willie advocated and pushed and got it approved. And so it was a six month pilot where they had to go prove the concept and they just they grind it. They worked their ass off to get numbers and show like this is important. This is needed. And once they did that, then the chief was like, okay, I will allow this to become a, and it wasn't even if we're going to be really technical, they didn't like the word unit. They called us a detail because we were so small. Even though we said mental health unit, but yeah, it was just four of us when it first officially started back in like December of 2009. 

Rich Bennett 37:14
But it was very effective, wasn't 

Joe Smarro 37:16
Very effective. 

Rich Bennett 37:17
it? 

Joe Smarro 37:17
Yes. A region. 

Rich Bennett 37:18
What do you think made it so effective? 

Joe Smarro 37:20
I think the fact that we were small allowed us to be nimble. We were we were offest out of our local mental health authority. We had incredible on the job training because we worked with the license clinicians at the crisis call center. So they would go out all day on these calls and we would watch them do these assessments. We would watch them do their interventions. We would learn from them on like, you know, the questions they would ask was like, why are they asking those types of questions? Like, that's weird. So it went beyond our training, which was great. And we we did that for the first year and then I think there's saturation. So 100% of our calls were mental health related where when I was on patrol, I would get a mental health call per day, but then I would also get everything else right loud 

Rich Bennett 38:08
Mm-hmm. 

Joe Smarro 38:08
music, parking dogs, a robbery, a theft report, a domestic violence like so you're having to be everything all at once. But on the mental health unit, because it's all we did, we became really good at doing that thing really well. And, and then we were also a teaching unit. So we worked very closely with our stakeholders. We were in monthly meetings, we were learning the back end. So it allowed us to really understand both sides of this like, yeah, we're going to advocate on behalf of the police department. But we also can appreciate the fact that some of these hospitals that are not private or I'm sorry that our private they operate on what's called a bottom line and they have EBITDA and they want to make sure that they're profitable or they're going to close business. And so it's like, yeah, they have to worry about generating revenue as well. Something I didn't care about as a cop. I'm like, no, no, I have a problem. You're the hospital. Take my problem. But now it's a business owner. I'm like, yeah, that's not the way the world works. 

Rich Bennett 39:01
Right. 

Joe Smarro 39:01
And so you have to make money if you're going to stay open. And a lot of cops didn't realize this or care about this. So we got really good at becoming the bridge between all of the treatment providers in the community and the police department. Now again, none of that happens anymore. Sadly, not at that level. They've gotten so far away from the original mission. I'm not a super fan of it. But I know that there are still because the unit now is like over 40 people, I believe. 

Rich Bennett 39:31
Wow. 

Joe Smarro 39:32
Yeah, and they're doing so many different things. It's gotten far away from the core of the mission. Far less training. No real engagement with the community stakeholders. They're not attending the meetings the way they used to. So it's just kind of, they've almost become isolationist in that sense of their it's all in house now. And they're not as much collaborating with the providers as much anymore, which is really unfortunate. 

Rich Bennett 39:59
Yeah. Yeah, you said you were with the police department for 15 years. 

Joe Smarro 40:04
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 40:05
and Kirby if we're all bit when you left that's when you start all started solution point plus. 

Joe Smarro 40:10
I so I started it in 2017 three years before I left. So yeah, Jesse and I. Yeah, Jesse and I started it in January of 2017. And then I resigned in September of 2020. 

Rich Bennett 40:24
No, resigned from the police department. OK, I thought you made you resign from solution point. 

Joe Smarro 40:29
No, 

Rich Bennett 40:29
no, no. Wait a minute. 

Joe Smarro 40:30
That's my 

Rich Bennett 40:31
What? 

Joe Smarro 40:31
full time. 

Rich Bennett 40:32
Yeah. OK, so what made you decide to, you know, finally walk away for the police department full time and focus on solution point plus? 

Joe Smarro 40:42
Honest answer is 18 months of misery. The documentary that you brought up, Ernie and Joe crisis cops, that was it was the best and worst thing to happen to me professionally. 

Rich Bennett 40:55
OK, 

Joe Smarro 40:57
it was the best thing because it's a legacy thing like there's a documentary that exists out there that I've I've shared with my children my youngest he was 13 last year. And we watched it and had great conversation because they never understood like what I did. 

Rich Bennett 41:12
yeah, 

Joe Smarro 41:12
So the fact that like that will always exist and my kids can appreciate it and show their kids in long after I'm gone that still lives on film. I love that. it was three years of filming. 

Rich Bennett 41:24
Wow, 

Joe Smarro 41:24
I was mandated to be a part of it, but it ruined my career because the Chief did not support it once it came out. And my full time job truly was. like dealing with the community. It was going to meetings. And as soon as this movie came out, it premiered at South by Southwest in Austin. It won an audience choice award. Our brilliant filmmaker Jen McChain, she was getting deals from our offers from, you know, I think Apple and PBS and Netflix and 

Rich Bennett 42:01
Wow, 

Joe Smarro 42:01
in HBO. And ultimately ended up going with HBO, but. Uh, when HBO bought it from her, it was like it offended the chief of like, oh, these guys want to be movie stars? And I was like, first of all, I didn't want to be a part of this. I went through a divorce during it. I tried to advocate to get out of it. I didn't love the process of it. I didn't like what it did to my Ernie's relationship because it really, uh, highlighted some things I wasn't a big fan of. And so then I was like, yeah, this is not, this is not a fun experience for me. Again, I think Jen is amazing in what she put out is incredible, but the experience wasn't always, um, fun. And, and there was no like compensation from the department, no overtime pay, no cop time, even though they're following me home. They're like, hey, uh, we're gonna ride home with you. We want you to make dinner tonight. I'm like, I don't want to make dinner. They're like, yeah, just make dinner. We're going to film it. I'm like, damn. So to deal with this for three years, often on, right? It wasn't daily, but it was a lot. 

Rich Bennett 43:02
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 43:02
And then for it to come out and get punished and a bit, essentially, and this is from his leadership, by the way, that are like telling me in a bathroom like, hey, Joe, we don't know what's going on, but we've been given like orders to not support this. Um, we held screenings for him in the community. He put it on his calendar that he was going to be there. He ghosted all of them. Yeah. And then I essentially was told like, yeah, just, you're not allowed to leave the office, like any, any request that comes in for Joe to speak, deny it. And I was like, okay. So my therapist, who I still have, uh, the great doctor, Davis, she's incredible. Um, I remember one day I showed up and she goes, Hey, how long are you going to show up to these sessions and just bitch about work? And I was like, oh, forever. like, no, that is not option. And I'm like, well, I don't have an option because I can't retire for five more years. And she told me like deadpan. She's like, Joe, you're not going to make it five years. Like there's no, you're going to make it five years, like you are miserable. Jesse, my best friend was like, dude, I've never seen you this angry, like you're pissed off all the time. You're mad at it. Like you've lost your, you know, your sense of humor. You're just irritable. And I'm like, yeah, do this isn't fair. And he was like, yeah, we all agree. But I requested to go talk to the chief, denied. I'm like, well, yeah, but he has an open door policy. They're like, nope, you can't go talk to him. I'm like, why? Nobody would give me answers. And then when I resigned, I thought, well, maybe I'll get an exit interview when, because when you, when you resign, you're supposed to a buddy of mine resigned like two months before me. And he got an exit interview with the chief. So I'm like, cool. I'll at least get that. And again, I am a very level headed individual. I was never going to like 

Rich Bennett 44:42
She's 

Joe Smarro 44:42
propunch this guy. Like I just wanted to talk to him like a dude and just ask him like, hey man, what was so threatening about this? Like what did I do wrong? Help me understand why you're so upset about this. And, but no, even when I resign, they're like, nope, you don't get to talk to the chief when you leave. And so I'm like, okay, so I have, there's, there is no love lost there. Like I love the San Antonio Police Department, the men and women that do the job well. I really, truly struggle with that chief, his 

Rich Bennett 45:09
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 45:10
horrific leadership. And the ones that just fall in line because they're so afraid to speak up. And the former assistant chief was the same. She, she used to be our boss. She was incredible. And then as soon as she became the assistant chief, she like lost her mind and forgot about every terrible thing she's done in her life. And so I was like, yeah, you guys just, this is the problem with the, the profession, though, this is in my opinion, why first responders kill themselves. It's because of, and again, our department and rich. We had three and 18 months between 18 and 19. And then in 2021, we had six suicides in our department and the chief, 

Rich Bennett 45:50
just in your department. 

Joe Smarro 45:52
And this not our department. And the chief will get on camera and say, we have a hundred resources, which is a true statement. He will never say, yeah, but no one's going to use them because they don't trust me and how poor of a leader. I actually am to my agency. And so until we have leaders that are really willing to like step up and toe the line, this is going to continue to be a problem because, and as they say, like, I didn't leave my job. I left Chief McManus just pure and that's not like a, and here's the thing, too. There's a line in my book rich. And it's, while it is like kind of a poke in the eye and sarcasm, admittedly, I really believe this. And it's like the line says chief McManus has no idea how often he makes my gratitude journal because if he was a good leader, I would probably still be a police officer. And the reality is is that I'm grateful that he is the way he is as a leader. Again, this has nothing to do with him as a man. I don't know him personally. Hell, I never 

Rich Bennett 46:49
Right. 

Joe Smarro 46:49
got to have a conversation. That's not allowed apparently. But as a leader, no respect. And so for me it's like Because he was such a terrible leader, it forced me to do something I wouldn't have done otherwise. And so I left my job without a pension. But now, like, oh, baby, like the company go from just being a side hustle to now a seven figure business to like 

Rich Bennett 47:13
nice. 

Joe Smarro 47:13
really helping, like my life is really good. And this would have either a not happened or would have been delayed at least another five years, if I still was a cop. And so I'm like, yeah, thank you for 

for pushing me out. And I do give him credit even though it's probably not the credit he would like. 

Rich Bennett 47:33
Hey, you probably felt like a ton of bricks was lifted off your 

Joe Smarro 47:35
too. 

Rich Bennett 47:36
shoulders 

Joe Smarro 47:36
Huge. Huge. Oh, man, like, I mean, I'm not exaggerating, headaches gone. Like, once you change your toxic environment, so much like owning a business is stressful. But it's like stress I enjoy. This is like, this is like the Marine Corps stress now. I'm like, oh, this is fun. 

Rich Bennett 47:53
I can fall off. 

Joe Smarro 47:53
I can like grit through this. But when you feel helpless because you work in a hierarchy in your 12 ranks below the top person and the top person doesn't know who you are, never has a conversation with you and yet treats you a certain way. There's nothing you can do. And as the saying goes, like, if you can't change the system, you got to change yourself. And so, I just got to a place where I realized I could impact our profession. Like, I, I love law enforcement. I don't love the amount of emotionally stunted men and poor leaders we have in the profession. And and so I just realized that I could have a much greater impact on this profession if I leave my job more than I could if I stay in my job. 

Rich Bennett 48:41
So I with solutions point plus explained everybody everything that you guys do. 

Joe Smarro 48:48
Yeah. So in a nutshell, quickly, is we operate the intersection of public safety and behavioral health care. So our clients, while we used to provide just crisis intervention training, now that is not, that's, in fact, the least thing we do. We have client, our largest client is the Federal Bureau of Presence. And then we also are in public transit in California. We have contracts up in Canada to train the First Nation Indigenous police services. Yeah, we, we have worked in this great state of Iowa for the last eight years on a monthly basis for the last four. And and then we've done train the trainer models for the Illinois State Police for Shreveport. I do a bunch of keynotes. So knowing the market, here's how it typically works. I Joe tomorrow, I go do a keynote, a podcast, the TEDx, the book, the whatever. It's like the face, the voice of the brand. 

Rich Bennett 49:45
Right. 

Joe Smarro 49:46
And so I do a keynote. And then from there, it's like, oh, they learn about me, our style, our philosophies. And then they're like, yeah, I want training. Cool. So we have training. So we have one day, two day, three day and five day offers. We have a one day basic deescalation, a two day intermediate deescalation and a three day advanced deescalation training. We have a two day training for dispatchers and telecommunicators. We have a two day training called the Michelle White child adolescent mental health and deescalation training for school resource officers and school-based personnel. We're starting to get more into the education space. We work in healthcare. We've trained the security officers and nursing staff at emergency departments. As I mentioned, public transit. We're up in San Jose and Santa Clara County in northern California, training all of their bus operators and light rail workers. And and then my favorite training of all is x factor, which is a two day. It's called x factor mental wellness and resiliency. That is essentially why we don't call a suicide prevention training. That's exactly what it is. It really is our flagship training. It's while it's only two days, it's been our most effective for the biggest return on like life savings that I've ever seen. And really how that training is framed up is like day one is the problem. We talk about culture or training, the issues that have created to get to where we are. And then all day to a solution. And we talk up we give mind management techniques and frameworks. We talk about six pillars of self-care, positive psychology. There's activities. We do group work talking about resilience. But it's not like any other training that any first responders ever been to. I assure you, because we've done it for a little over a little over 3500. First responders have gone through it in the last year and a half. And collectively, they've said it's not like any training they've ever been through. 

Rich Bennett 51:46
So, wow, 

Joe Smarro 51:47
you start to believe it at some point. And so yeah, that's that's mainly what our trainings are. And again, if you just go to solution point plus.com, I'll spell that, and it's all of our offerings around the website. 

Rich Bennett 52:01
Oh, there's a couple of other things 

Joe Smarro 52:03
quick. 

Rich Bennett 52:03
I want to 

Joe Smarro 52:04
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 52:04
hit 

Joe Smarro 52:04
sure. 

Rich Bennett 52:05
The book. 

Joe Smarro 52:06
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 52:07
Unarmed. First of all, I think I know the answer. Everybody listening probably already does. Why did you decide to write it? 

Joe Smarro 52:16
Yeah, so I wrote it because I was pushed by a mentor that said, as a small business owner, a book as an oversized business card. So that was interesting. The second reason is I realized that in running a business, the biggest problem with people accessing us is that because we are a business, public safety tends to not have a lot of money. So as soon as someone reaches out, they're like, this is amazing, we want to bring you out and do a training. We're like, all right, cool. And then we're like, okay, this is what the training costs and they're like, oh, we can't buy that. All right, well, I don't like that response. And again, I get it, but I don't like it. And so then it's like, so then we just can't help you because your department doesn't have the money for this. So then this was for like, okay, we'll do you have, I don't know, 19 bucks or whatever it is on Amazon. Because if you're willing to spend $20 to get this book, I assure you it will help you. Why? Because so much of our training is put into this book, it has de-escalation tenets in the book. It has our wellness and resiliency training in the book. It's got the suicide. Chapter 7 is called worthy of tomorrow. We give you our, what we call the SP plus triangle of how to do an assessment. That's in the book. So I basically took key components of each one of our trainings and put it all in this book so that even if, so it's two reasons, if you do go through our training, this book is going to act as an excellent refresher or resource for you 

Rich Bennett 53:39
free. 

Joe Smarro 53:39
to stay 

Rich Bennett 53:39
God book. 

Joe Smarro 53:40
Yeah, it's a guide. Second is if you can't go through our training because your department can't afford it or your city won't pay for it whatever it is. Now you can buy this and just learn the skills yourself. And what's really generous is we have some online courses as well. And they, they range from 47 bucks to 97 bucks. But what I did is if you buy this book for $19 or $20, there's a QR code right unlike the first or second page. And if you scan that QR code, it takes you directly right to our active listening, effective communication and active listening course, which is a $97 course for free. It just gives it to you 

Rich Bennett 54:20
really. 

Joe Smarro 54:20
Yeah, so look, I'm, I'm not trying to get rich on the book. I really want people to learn the skills and I would love for people to buy it for sure. And yeah, because I think you're going to learn something from it. And I made sure that it was worth your money because you're essentially getting a $97 offer for buying the book at 20 bucks. 

Rich Bennett 54:43
Now, this it sounds like this book is basically for I want to say anybody 

Joe Smarro 54:49
funny to say that. Yeah. So this is one of my favorite things is I had this guy. He he, he's a local here in the shirt, civilo area, a prominent member at the Chamber of Commerce, but he owns these mechanic shops, right? 

Rich Bennett 55:05
Okay. 

Joe Smarro 55:06
He's car mechanic and he's a you know, blue collar smart businessman. But he's known my wife for a couple years now and she goes to the chamber a lot. And so when I was released in the book last year to kind of support her husband, he was like, yeah, I'll go on this like webinar you're doing and I'll buy the book. And he bought the Kindle and he said he was like, I don't know. He was in New Mexico, Arizona, hiking without service had his Kindle and he said he was just one day like, let me just see what this is. But he's like, for sure, I thought it was going to be a book only for cops. And he goes and I read it and I couldn't put it down and it's it's not long. It's like 140 something pages. It's it's a really easy read. because it really is like me speaking and then just getting it transcribed and edited. So it's just me talking. 

Rich Bennett 55:52
Right. And 

Joe Smarro 55:52
But so he said, I couldn't put it down and then he goes and this was like some the best feedback. But he goes, you know, this was the best book on communication that I've ever read. And it was so good that I went and bought more copies and I put it in my each of my auto body shops and I'm making my mechanics read the book because they deal with customers. And so to your question, yes, like this, I've had parents that have nothing to do with public safety read this and appreciate the skills that are in it so that they can better resonate or connect with their family or understand what's happening with their children. So there really is unlimited use case because it's we're essentially talking about the mind we're talking about human behavior, talking about challenging your belief systems, just talking about a lot of the stuff that I've kind of talked about on this podcast, even of like some of these mindsets about focus on the person, not the problem, 

Rich Bennett 56:42
you 

Joe Smarro 56:44
know, asking yourself like what else could be true, not getting stuck in habitual thinking. So a lot of those insights are in the book. And again, I am bias, obviously, but I think there's there's a lot of value 

Rich Bennett 56:56
in it. 

Do you think it'd be? 'Do you think this is something that, well, I definitely think it should be, but do you think your book would help if it was even in the libraries of say high schools? 

Joe Smarro 57:09
 'Oh yeah, for sure. For sure'. Yeah, no, and I've donated a lot to libraries, like, even in the prisons, right? Like, I've given a lot 

Rich Bennett 57:19
Uh, yeah'. 

Joe Smarro 57:20
within the prisons, put in their libraries both for staff and not. You know, yeah, I think, like, a high schooler, uh, reading this, like, I gave it, my son just graduated high school a couple of weeks ago, uh, I told him like, 'Hey man, I'd like for you to read this'. Like, there's, there's just good life skills in it, and, and just ways, different ways of thinking about things. 

Rich Bennett 57:39
So, those of you listening, a couple of things, number one, go to unarmedbook.com, make sure you purchase a copy. If you read it, leave a full review, whether it be on Goodreads, Amazon, wherever you can leave reviews, but I also want you to buy copies for friends of yours. If you own a business, buy it for your employees. Buy it for people you know, buy some and donate them to some local nonprofits, especially the ones for mental health, addiction and so forth. Also go to solution point plus.com, because there's great courses. And if you need Joe and his team, that's where you find them. Or you could also go to JoeSmaru.com. And I'll have all that. All the links in the shared. I want to talk to you about the podcast real quick. 

Joe Smarro 58:38
Let's 

Rich Bennett 58:38
do it. Why did you decide to start a podcast as hard as it is, man? 

Joe Smarro 58:43
Yeah. So, it's funny. Jesse and I actually started this back when we were police officers. And I really don't want people to think that I'm coming off as like why you need or entitled, but this these are true stories. I, we were, we started the podcast when we were cops and we were called into lieutenant's office one day. Now mind you, we had approval through PIO, the public information office, we did everything above board. We followed the general manual. We got approval. We started the podcast. We had maybe five or six episodes. We get called the lieutenant's office one day, said, hey, the chief said you got to shut down the podcast. And I'm like, why? 

Rich Bennett 59:20
Why? 

Joe Smarro 59:20
He's like, I have no idea. He just, he told us to have you shut it down. And I'm like, what did I ever do to this man? And I remember telling the lieutenant, I'm like, I said, I said, hey, isn't this because first of all, we had permission. 

Rich Bennett 59:32
Right. 

Joe Smarro 59:32
Second of all, we're not representing the San Antonio Police Department. We don't talk about the San Antonio Police Department. And so what is it that like, what are we violating and does this not fall under like a first amendment constitutional right. 

Rich Bennett 59:46
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 59:46
And he laughed at me and said, Joe, when you became a San Antonio Police Officer, you gave up your constitutional rights. And I was like, I had no idea. Like, I didn't know that I signed that. So yeah, like that's, that's the culture in a lot of places. And so it was like, all right. Well, so we shut it down because they said, hey, if you don't shut down your podcast, we're going to revoke your work permit, which is for a solution point, plus. And we're going to take away your right to have a side job as well. So we 

Rich Bennett 1:00:11
damn 

Joe Smarro 1:00:12
we canceled the podcast. And and then we just got so busy with the business. Now, why did we relaunch. Because now I'm in a season where for the first time, you know, we've got a great team. I've got 

Rich Bennett 1:00:24
yeah, 

Joe Smarro 1:00:25
11 people working with the company right now. And We've got to a place where I'm starting to be home more because I was on the road 25 days a month for the last four years for the last five years, I've been on the road 20 to 25 days a month. And now that I'm home a little bit more, it's like, OK, how can I, because we've done no marketing, like we've done no marketing. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:46
right. 

Joe Smarro 1:00:47
And and so now podcast is just a great marketing technique because people listen to podcast and the cars when they're running driving. Whatever. And so it was just a little bit rather vertical for me to get my voice out there. Again, to talk about the book, to talk. They're still people. And yeah, and it's it's called truly mental. And we're actually where it used to be just me and Jesse talking to one another. Now we're in interviewing guests. And so 

Rich Bennett 1:01:13
Nice. 

Joe Smarro 1:01:14
Jesse and I rotate and we'll take turns reviewing different guests. And yeah, we've already got our whole year of in the pipeline. Now we're going to do an episode a week, but we've got like 60 episodes just sit in the hopper. So now it's just a matter of prioritizing them to get them out. But it's been fun. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:33
Yeah, 

Joe Smarro 1:01:33
And the fun is part. And you know this rich because you're doing it is, you never know who you're going to meet. You have some really 

Rich Bennett 1:01:38
exactly. 

Joe Smarro 1:01:38
fascinating conversations. I love learning. And I think, you know, life is a library. And so you're learning from people. And it challenges your perspective. It gets you to think differently. And I love that. So 

Rich Bennett 1:01:50
Yeah. 

Joe Smarro 1:01:50
it's been a really, really fun journey for me as well. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:53
Oh, I love it too, and if you would have, and I've said this before, ten years ago, when I started this, if somebody would have said, "Yeah, why don't you, do you think it'll keep going on?" And it's like, "No, 'cause I'll be honest with you, I really didn't like..." 

Joe Smarro 1:02:13
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:21
It, yeah, this, yeah. We've been-- 

Joe Smarro 1:02:23
Congrats, man. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:24
Ten years, and uh, 

Joe Smarro 1:02:26
Congrats. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:26
when it changed, we went from once a month to now I'm dropping three episodes a week. I have some people who want me to drop an episode every day, I'm sorry. 

Joe Smarro 1:02:35
Okay, good 

Rich Bennett 1:02:37
And 

Joe Smarro 1:02:37
for you, brother. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:39
I do everything. yeah. 

Joe Smarro 1:02:40
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 1:02:40
I do the editing, I book the guests, I mean, it's a lot of hard work, but I love it because I learned so much, and then, well, you see the green curtain behind me, that's because I'm remodeling. Once I'm done, and I have, it's going to be nothing but bookshelves, and all of the guests I've had on, they're written books, that's what's going to be my background. 

Joe Smarro 1:03:01
I love 

Rich Bennett 1:03:02
it. I just, yeah. 

Joe Smarro 1:03:05
Well, I'll make sure you connect with me, I'm going to send you a signed one for free, brother. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:08
Oh, I appreciate that. But no, I love it. All right, so, Joe, before I get to my last question, which we have no idea what it's going to be, is there anything you like to add? 

Joe Smarro 1:03:21
Yeah, I mean, just grateful for sharing your audience with me, congrats on your success of ten years, that's awesome. And then, yeah, I guess just one thing is for anyone because I don't know traditionally who your audience is, but just getting to talk to you, I can make some assumptions. I just want to say that, if you feel you're, if you find yourself right now, like overwhelmed, stressed out, burnt out, any level of discomfort in the area of like overwhelmed stress, then don't forget to breathe, like actually be intentional and breathe, and then slow down and ask yourself like, what are you focusing on? Because you become what you consume. And so maybe get off the social media's and get off the media and focus on the thing like, create the reality you actually want to exist. And I really believe we live in a beautiful, beautiful place, you just got to go look for it, and it's not that hard. And I just, I see so much collective suffering right now, and anytime you turn on the TV or pick up your phone, you're just, you're inundated with stress and doom and gloom. All I have to do is like walk outside, and it's very easy for me to pick up on warmth, a breeze, a bird, just beauty that surrounds us, and so don't lose sight of that, and don't take for granted what is given to us freely, which is life. And yeah, and remember that you're all worthy of love and you deserve love, and while I don't know you, I love you all, and I appreciate your time for sure. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:55
You meditate a lot, don't 

Joe Smarro 1:04:57
I meditate a lot. I do a 

Rich Bennett 1:04:59
you? It's 

Joe Smarro 1:04:59
lot of 

Rich Bennett 1:04:59
awesome. 

Joe Smarro 1:04:59
thinking, and I call it think atting, but yes, I 

Rich Bennett 1:05:03
him, 

Joe Smarro 1:05:03
sit with 

Rich Bennett 1:05:03
oh, 

Joe Smarro 1:05:04
a lot. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:05
it. I like that. I've got to steal that word. 

Joe Smarro 1:05:07
Take 

Rich Bennett 1:05:07
Now, it's, I mean, with everything that I went through meditating definitely helps my mental health. 

Joe Smarro 1:05:14
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 1:05:15
that, and I have a funny feeling when I, and this is not my last question, but I have a funny feeling when I ask you this, you're going to tell me, yes, did you read the secret? I, 

Joe Smarro 1:05:26
yes, watch, I've watched it, and I'm very familiar with all of the work of it. Yes, 

Rich Bennett 1:05:30
Okay, 

Joe Smarro 1:05:31
very familiar. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:31
because when you're saying all that, it's like, damn, I got a lot of that from, from watching the 

Joe Smarro 1:05:36
then 

Rich Bennett 1:05:36
secret, and 

Joe Smarro 1:05:37
the 

Rich Bennett 1:05:37
book because the movie came first, 

Joe Smarro 1:05:39
right? Yep. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:41
Is, 

Joe Smarro 1:05:41
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:42
Strange. All right. So you ready for this? 

Joe Smarro 1:05:44
Let's do it. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:45
I got to hope I am picking number through one, between one and 50. 

Joe Smarro 1:05:50
I'm going number six. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:51
Let's see what this question is. Oh 

Joe Smarro 1:05:59
shit. Hell yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:00
It's shit. I'm telling you, Joe. This shit is weird. Remember, I told you about the musician I had. 

Joe Smarro 1:06:06
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:06
And the soul or the number he picked, which lined up with music. 

Joe Smarro 1:06:10
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:11
You pick number six, which in a way lines up with the military background and even the police department. 

Joe Smarro 1:06:18
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:19
What does freedom truly mean to you, and do you feel you have it? 

Joe Smarro 1:06:26
So I answer the second part first. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:28
Okay. 

Joe Smarro 1:06:29
Do I have it? Absolutely unequivocally. Yes. What does freedom mean to me? It is not what a lot of people believe. And it's, I love this question. I talk about this. I say, and in one word, people will sum up the United States America is what? And people say, freedom. But how much freedom do you actually have? And they're like they're thinking I'm like who lives in an HOA and hands go up. I'm like, okay, so like leave your trash bin out front Let's see what happens. You know you want to put a pool in your backyard. You need Becky's permission from three streets over you never even met her So it's like there's so many layers of Reality on the police department, right? We didn't I didn't have any freedom. I couldn't have a podcast. I 

Rich Bennett 1:07:07
Right. 

Joe Smarro 1:07:07
couldn't meet with the chief So it and to me freedom and autonomy go hand in hand So do I have freedom unequivocally? Yes, what is freedom to me? Freedom is understanding two things It's that I am free to think whatever I want And I'm free to do whatever I want as long as I can accept and understand that everything as a consequence Positive negative or neutral, but everything as a consequence You are free to do anything you want to do as long as you're also willing to accept said consequence And that's where I think people fall short is it's like no, I want to do what I want But then I also want to fight the consequence of it No, no you have to embrace both Because that's just the way life is is that everything we do because all behaviors communication Everything we do every choice we make has some type of consequence again. It could be a good one It could be a bad one. It might be a neutral one But when you understand that like yeah, then then we then we all have freedom Especially in this country because you can think what you want you can you want to watch Fox watch Fox You want to watch CNN watch CNN you want to not own a TV don't own a TV like propaganda is voluntary suffering So like don't turn it on and and then pay attention to like you're an aggregate of the five people you spend most time with You become what you consume audit your social media and and like again, what is the ideal life you want to live and then create it That to me is freedom and and because we live in a capitalist society I think the what my what I call the secret of life is is Find a hobby turn it into a skill and learn to monetize it I feel like that's exactly what I do a solution point plus that's what you ignore with your podcast is I love speaking. I love getting to speak on stages or present training. I get to I'm good at it I would argue and I get paid for it. So like oh man, this is fun like how blessed am I 

Rich Bennett 1:09:01
Yeah, 

Joe Smarro 1:09:02
hardly too many people are working in feeling like a victim of their vocation Or in public safety. I say you're a prisoner to your pension and neither one of those are serving you And so find the thing you love become skilled at it. Learn to monetize it. That's freedom Never 

Rich Bennett 1:09:17
Damn. I love that dance. I'm glad that question was on there Joe I appreciate it, man. Thank 

Joe Smarro 1:09:24
for 

Rich Bennett 1:09:24
you 

Joe Smarro 1:09:24
You're fine 

Rich Bennett 1:09:25
thing you're doing and the door is open anytime you want to come back 

Joe Smarro 1:09:29
Hell yeah, brother. Thank you, man. I appreciate your echo 

Rich Bennett 1:09:32
Semper fire brother. 

Joe Smarro 1:09:33
Look at fire

Rich Bennett 1:09:33
Thank you for listening to the conversations with rich Bennett I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did if you'd like to hear more conversations like this Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode and if you have a moment I'd love it if you can leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with rich Bennett calm for updates giveaways and more until next time take care Be kind and keep the conversations going You know, it takes a lot to put a podcast together and and my sponsors help add a lot But I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing software The hosting and so forth. There's a lot that goes into putting this together So I want to thank them and if you can please please visit their websites visit their businesses Support them however you can so please visit the following real-life prosthetics cutting-edge solutions restoring ability since 2001 Go to real-life prosthetics.com Full circle boards. Nobody does charcuterie like full circle boards visit them at fullcircleboards.com Sincerely soil your photography Live in the moment. They'll capture it visit them at sincerelysoyer.com