A.J. Otjen Explores Red Lodge’s Summer Of Hell, And Hope

Wendy & Rich 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning 10 this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared a episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we've shared laughs, tears, and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next 10 years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios. Harford County Living presents Conversations with Rich Bennett. 

No, no, no. It's like who is? 

Rich Bennett 1:00
Imagine fighting a relentless wildfire, surrounded by flames and smoke, when suddenly the fire turns on you, leaving you trapped and fighting for your life. This was the reality for Montana Fire Fighter Dan Steffensen, during the infamous Summer of Hell in 2021. Critically injured in a burnover incident, Dan's road to recovery was nothing short of miraculous. His story isn't just one of survival. It's a powerful testament to human resilience, the unbreakable bonds of community, and the spirit of those who risk it all to protect others. And today, I am joined by award-winning author AJ Oakin, who captured Dan's incredible journey in her new book "Burned Over." And I'm just going to say it right now, for all of you listening, go to ajvaccinetsotjien.com and purchase this book. And when you purchase the book, make sure you leave a full review and purchase a copy for other people, too. I guarantee you, this is a book that's going to, you're just going to floored and we're about to hear the story. How you doing, AJ? 

A.J. Otjen 2:28
I'm great. Thank you 

Rich Bennett 2:29
Oh, 

A.J. Otjen 2:29
so much. 

Rich Bennett 2:30
my pleasure. So I, I want, 

A.J. Otjen 2:31
it was wonderful. 

Rich Bennett 2:33
Because you've been writing for a while. Correct? 

A.J. Otjen 2:39
I've been writing academically for a long time and I started writing creatively about 10 years ago. And it's a bit of a difference. Acidimically requires a lot more research. It's almost all research and 

Rich Bennett 2:51
right. 

A.J. Otjen 2:52
And getting it down to, you know, prove, prove a theory. And then creatively requires, having a story to tell and making it much more of a 

Rich Bennett 3:04
It's 

A.J. Otjen 3:04
narrative. 

Rich Bennett 3:04
good. I was going to ask you which one 

A.J. Otjen 3:05
more? 

Rich Bennett 3:05
do you like 

A.J. Otjen 3:05
I enjoy that much more, of course. 

Rich Bennett 3:07
So when you started writing creatively, how many different books have you written for that? 

Right. Those of you listening, you know she knows what she's doing. She's sitting there, she's got a cat in her head. How many of you? Wow, eight. They're all novels. 

A.J. Otjen 3:32
well, 

Rich Bennett 3:32
Right? Oh, 

A.J. Otjen 3:33
well, no, no. This is my first nonfiction 

Rich Bennett 3:37
novel. Oh, 

A.J. Otjen 3:37
there 

Rich Bennett 3:38
wow. 

A.J. Otjen 3:38
none fiction novel? The others, the others are actually children's books that are focused on a Saulic of Crow, which is an indie, is one of the tribes here in Montana. And a 

Rich Bennett 3:53
Really? 

A.J. Otjen 3:53
couple of them are actually in the curriculum because they did require research. So, I do also do a lot of research for my children's books. And they also feature Crow artists. The last one was chosen by the Library of Congress and 

Rich Bennett 4:08
Okay. 

A.J. Otjen 4:08
they featured an artist named Kevin Redstar. So we put a lot of work in these books. We research Crow history, Crow folklore, Crow art. And that's why that's why they're in the curriculum because there's something called Indian education for all, 

Rich Bennett 4:27
Right. 

A.J. Otjen 4:27
which is, you know, which is a federal law, which is supposed to be putting much more, you know, historic, accurate Indian education, into our, into our mainstream curriculum. But we've pretty much failed at doing it because there's not a lot of really good books out there to put into the curriculum. So we focused on getting that done. And we've got two Saulic 

Rich Bennett 4:51
Now, 

A.J. Otjen 4:51
of Crow books and two of the Montana curriculum. And 

Rich Bennett 4:54
are 

A.J. Otjen 4:54
one of them, like I said, 

Rich Bennett 4:55
for anybody that 

A.J. Otjen 4:55
shows the Library of Congress, so. 

Rich Bennett 4:58
Okay, good. 

A.J. Otjen 5:00
Yes, yes, they actually are, they're all one, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're also on my 

Rich Bennett 5:04
Oh, 

A.J. Otjen 5:04
way. 

Rich Bennett 5:04
that's, 

A.J. Otjen 5:05
they're also on Amazon, along with this book. But this was my fingers, yeah, this, this was my first 

Rich Bennett 5:11
that's, 

A.J. Otjen 5:11
nonfiction. 

Rich Bennett 5:11
I love to do is to read the history 

A.J. Otjen 5:14
because 

Rich Bennett 5:14
books Well, I mean, let's face it, when you and I were growing up, in school, they don't have the history books like we did 

A.J. Otjen 5:23
then. 

Rich Bennett 5:24
back 

A.J. Otjen 5:24
Mm-hmm. 

Rich Bennett 5:25
And there's, you always have to go back, 

A.J. Otjen 5:28
Right. 

Rich Bennett 5:29
and it's always good to go back and read some of this stuff to refresh your mind as well. Plus you always learn something new. I mean, we were younger, we did. We weren't paying attention to a lot of things. They were teaching us in school. So, guys, everybody get hurt, get those books too. All right, I want to get right to the point with Dan. How do it... You find out about Dan and what made you decide to write his story? 

Mm-hmm. 

A.J. Otjen 5:57
Well, I'm a professor at Montana State, and my students were putting on an ad, we were creating an ad campaign about raising money for personal protective equipment for firefighters. Which is what Dan was wearing when he was burned over. And so, it was a year after he was burned, and he, he was the star of our ad campaign. He did a great job. He was the voiceover, and then at the end, he stood up, wearing his outfit, saying, "Please give money so that all firefighters can have this equipment, and they can live like I did." And so, I met him on that shoot, that my students were doing about a year after he was burned over. And he had read a couple of my books. He saw, he saw an article about one of the books that, that Kevin Redstone and I did together. And he said, "Well, would you write my book?" And I went, "Kevin, I'm really good with about, you know, two to three thousand words." You know, so... I said, "I also had a column in the Billings Gazette, and I bet, you know, I mean, I did focus on courage in Montana and ethics and social issues, 

and, you know, and history and things like that." And he said, "Well, I think you can write my book." 

Rich Bennett 7:12
went, "Yeah." 

A.J. Otjen 7:13
And I "Well, how do you say no, right, to a hero that's been burned open, and all the firefighters, everybody volunteers for the firefighters, so I said, "OK, I'll do it." And it took two and a half years of research and interviews and becoming a narrative writer and, you know, to, and 40, 40 thousand 

Rich Bennett 7:38
later. 

A.J. Otjen 7:38
words 

Rich Bennett 7:39
Wow! 

A.J. Otjen 7:39
When I'm used to two to three thousand words. And a lot of tears because, yeah, a lot of tears, because everybody, I talked to cried when they remembered everything that happened. Dan and I cried a lot working 

Rich Bennett 7:51
together. Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 7:52
Because he is a tough guy, and he does not share his feelings very easily, so to get him to do that, took a lot of, I would say, "We've just, we had to become very close friends, very trusted friends, to, to talk about what really happened and how he felt about it." Because it was not easy, it was a very difficult journey for him. And everybody 

Rich Bennett 8:16
It's an 

A.J. Otjen 8:16
around, 

Rich Bennett 8:16
author, 

A.J. Otjen 8:16
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:16
I've had tons of authors on, but when you, everything you just mentioned, it just triggered a light bulb in my head. And I don't know if it's ever been done, well, I'm sure it has. But when you were interviewing all these people and speaking with Dan, were you videotaping all of this because it sounds like you would make a great documentary as well. 

A.J. Otjen 8:39
audio? I actually recorded it on my little Apple phone, recorded all the interviews, because I have very bad handwriting, and I couldn't read my own notes. I started off just taking notes, but then I couldn't read my handwriting, so I just, I said, "You're all mine, if I record this." So, that would have been interesting 

Rich Bennett 8:58
Did you 

A.J. Otjen 8:58
to 

Rich Bennett 8:58
have the 

A.J. Otjen 8:58
do a video camera. 

Rich Bennett 9:02
Wow, 

A.J. Otjen 9:03
I do have a lot of audio, yes. And when I say it's a near-to-nonfiction, I would say, it's intruded upon with a journalistic style 

Rich Bennett 9:12
right. 

A.J. Otjen 9:12
because I have so many direct quotes from so many people that are in the book. And, you know, from doctors, to EMTs, to firefighters, to fire chiefs, to the oner guard in Utah, because when he was burned, He was flown that night to Salt Lake City, 

Rich Bennett 9:31
right. 

A.J. Otjen 9:31
which is one of the best burn centers in the country. And oner guard, Utah oner guard met him when he came off the plane in the ambulance bay, and they took one look at him. He was laid out with tubes in his mouth and his head was just completely raw, and they said, "Okay, we're standing over this guy until he dies." Because that's what they do. They're in the full-dress uniform, from cover to shiny shoes, and they stand at attention until a firefighter dies. That's what the oner guard does. And he just did not die, and he was supposed to, because he was 65 years old and he was on rheumatoid arthritis medicine, which weakens your immune system. and he had 60% of 

Rich Bennett 10:17
butt. 

A.J. Otjen 10:18
his covered with third degree burns. And they, and, and, and, and, and when he was first burned, he didn't realize he kept saying, I'm okay, I'm fine. Because it burns your, it also, it destroys your nerves. Your skin doesn't have any nerves anymore. So he's walking around and they call it the walking dead because your organs are setting, starting to shut down. And, you know, usually people, people like this die within a day. But they're walking around thinking to 

Rich Bennett 10:51
All they're 

A.J. Otjen 10:51
just fine because they don't 

Rich Bennett 10:52
shot. 

A.J. Otjen 10:52
feel any pain. But, you know, but they're right. But the EMT, you know, it took like 20 minutes to get from the burn site to the, the billings emergency room. And the EMT was really stressed and, you know, and she describes the moment that ride in the ambulance is one of the one of the most profound experiences of her life. Because she thought that he was going to die before they got to the hospital. And they all know each other. They're first responders in one little county. And so here she's got the, one of her compadres, you know, probably going to die before she even gets into the hospital. And, but she got in there and then, and then even in the ER, everybody had behind the masks, you know, had tears in their eyes. And that, that's when he started thinking, she's everybody's crying. Am I 

Rich Bennett 11:42
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 11:43
really as hurt as they think they are, you know, and before they put you in there. And the doctor saying, I'm going to, I'm going to put you out now. And you're going to wake up in Utah. And he's thinking, are these my last words? You know, why is everybody so sad? You know, 

Rich Bennett 11:59
hello? How long did his? Did the, 

A.J. Otjen 12:01
and then, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 12:02
Recovery take for him. 

A.J. Otjen 12:03
Go ahead. 

Months. Well, actually, you know, it's, you're, you never completely recover from burns. Um, you know, because what the 40% of your body that is not burned becomes your skin grass. So it ends up being 100% of your body. And And it was, it's, I mean, it's, it's torture to recover from burns. He was in a coma for 

Rich Bennett 12:30
wow. 

A.J. Otjen 12:31
a while. A few weeks. And his family arrived. Yeah, his family was estranged at the time. They were from, but they came from all over the country. And when they were notified. And they were not a typical firefighter family because they had, they were not in Montana. And they didn't know anything about being a firefighter family. That was another thing the honor guard did was they met them at the airport. They said, no, this is what you're going to when you get there. And he was just covered in gauze from head to toe, you know, being tube, intubated. And they were like, holy crap. You know, and yet they all decided to come together as a family and take turns work together. 

Rich Bennett 13:11
Wow. 

A.J. Otjen 13:12
He was never left alone at when he was in the coma and when he was considering because they worked together for one purpose. And that was to save Dan. So family is a big part of this work. And the community of Red Lodge is a 

Rich Bennett 13:26
Right. 

A.J. Otjen 13:26
big part of this book because it was the summer of hell. They had several tragedies, hacked them. And it became so important for Dan to come home. Please Dan, you know, we've, we've, we had a huge fire, we lost a hiker, we've lost another firefighter. You have got to live. You have got to come home to it because we can't take 

Rich Bennett 13:46
more. 

A.J. Otjen 13:46
any 

Rich Bennett 13:46
Actually, 

A.J. Otjen 13:47
yes, in this town this summer. 

Rich Bennett 13:49
No, go ahead. 

A.J. Otjen 13:49
When when I go ahead. 

Well, when I, you know, I started out writing the book as an academic researching fire, researching firefighting, researching weather, researching radio frequencies. And I kept thinking this is not going anywhere, this story. It wasn't until I talked to all the townspeople and understood their pain and their emotion. 

Rich Bennett 14:12
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 14:13
They realized this is the story. Getting Dan home was the story. Why he was so important to the town. That was the story. And he really wanted to be a firebook and I said, no, Dan, this is a human book. This is a human story. And we need to capture, we need to get capture the love and get the love on the page. 

Rich Bennett 14:33
Yeah, 

A.J. Otjen 14:33
it was very difficult for me for an academic and I work. I just had to, had to raise my narrative writing skills. 

Rich Bennett 14:39
You mentioned there was multiple tragedies. 

A.J. Otjen 14:42
And and cry cry 

Rich Bennett 14:45
cry. 

A.J. Otjen 14:45
to 

Rich Bennett 14:45
And there is multiple tragedies at summer in red line. 

A.J. Otjen 14:48
See, 

yeah, it started with a Robertson draw fire, which came over the mountain and right to the edge of town. And they were getting ready to evacuate the town. Red Lodge is a sits right on the edge of Yellowstone National Park. So it's surrounded by fuel or forest and grass. So everybody town is, if they're not a member of the fire department, they're part of the family that's a member of the fire department. 

Rich Bennett 15:14
Mhm. 

A.J. Otjen 15:15
And they're always on high alert, fire season is always very scary for Red Lodge, Montana. And so this year, sure enough, fire happened, it came right over the mountain and right into town, right on the edge of town. Very, very scary, very moving. And that fire, though, the blue away, the wind shifted and it moved down a different path than actually Main Street, it didn't go out until the snow came in October and November. So that fire was raging all summer long. And then a hike, you know, that was very difficult. And then Montana graduate, a recent graduate, a very skilled climber went up to the Baertus and did not come back. So search and rescue, which is a part of the fire department, they were out all summer looking for this 

Rich Bennett 16:04
You 

A.J. Otjen 16:04
graduate. know, with dogs and helicopters and everything. And they didn't find her and it's in the summer they found her remains. And then another firefighter, very talented, very talented snowboarder because Red Lodge also has a ski mountain. So this guy worked on the mountain, also worked in restaurants in town, everybody knew him in town, young family. He fell on a skateboard and hit his head on the pavement, was on life support and they finally had to take him off life support. And so Dan was all this time Dan was in a coma in Utah. so they were saying Dan, we 

Rich Bennett 16:44
And 

A.J. Otjen 16:44
can't take anymore, we'll take anymore as a town. You've got to come home to us because he was part of the beloved 

Rich Bennett 16:52
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 16:52
fire. Team, a senior firefighter, you traveled with him all across the country, you know, to California wherever, wherever their crews were needed, they would go and fight fires. In fact, Dan would have been on this last California fire if we hadn't been fighting cancer which he's 

Rich Bennett 17:09
cancer. 

A.J. Otjen 17:09
fighting 

Rich Bennett 17:09
Oh, that big one out in LA. Oh, 

A.J. Otjen 17:13
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 17:13
wow. 

A.J. Otjen 17:15
Yes. Right, yeah, they're like several crews in Montana went to fight the big fires in California. You know, like they always do. And Dan would have been a part of that, but he could, but right now he's basically fighting cancer. 

Rich Bennett 17:28
So with the red, with the red light community, especially for the tragedies, what do you think made the community so resilient? You know, especially in the face of all those multiple tragedies that summer. 

A.J. Otjen 17:47
they, they learned to be 

Rich Bennett 17:50
Okay, 

A.J. Otjen 17:50
resilient. What they learned that summer and I talk to so many, I said, well, how did you heal from this? It's never healed, but we learn that we can, we can handle hard things. That's what we learned from this experience. Now we know how tough we are, where as tough as Dan, we'll always be scarred, just like Dan is scarred on his body. We're scarred as well, but all of us now know that how to lean on each other, how to share our emotions to get through anything. You can't hold it in. You got to talk about it. You got to talk with each other. Now we know that we can survive tough things and we always will. No matter how tough it gets, we can survive it. And that, that experience and that knowledge is huge. In fact, the very next summer was with Yellowstone River flooded and just wiped out so much of the, well, the red lodge was hit hard, they had a huge flood that knocked down so many buildings in the main street of town. And everybody said, it's a good thing it happened to this town, to this team, because we know exactly what to do. 

Rich Bennett 18:59
Right. 

A.J. Otjen 19:00
Because what they've been to the summer before. 

Rich Bennett 19:01
Wow, holy cow. That's 

A.J. Otjen 19:04
They're 

Rich Bennett 19:04
just. 

A.J. Otjen 19:04
a tough town. 

Rich Bennett 19:05
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 19:06
Yeah. Very tough, 

Rich Bennett 19:08
and the thing is, they 

A.J. Otjen 19:10
have to, they have to be. 

Rich Bennett 19:12
Yeah. Well, and, and I'm sure you capture all of that in the book. And you know, when people read this, because a lot, you know how a lot of people are to be like, wow, there's no way that this could be real, but it is. And that's, yeah, I mean, 

A.J. Otjen 19:31
it's right. 

Rich Bennett 19:32
You 

A.J. Otjen 19:32
That's right. 

Rich Bennett 19:32
don't hear a lot of communities that pull together like that anymore. I mean, that's just amazing. 

A.J. Otjen 19:41
Well, 

Rich Bennett 19:41
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 19:42
they're small, and, and it's, you know, it's, it's an old, 

Rich Bennett 19:46
wet, right, 

A.J. Otjen 19:49
Jeremiah Johnson was once the, 

Rich Bennett 19:50
really? 

A.J. Otjen 19:51
That's the bowl of red lodge. hmm. Originally it was crow country, yeah, it was originally crow country. I mean, the, the, the, the entire Yellowstone River was 

Rich Bennett 20:02
Mm 

A.J. Otjen 20:02
the home of the crow tribe for over 400 years. and this was part of that crow country area until the treaty of like I think the 1900s the turn of the century and then the crow were moved over east to their reservation and this became a mining town. So it's a you know 1910 1920 I think was when the town 

Rich Bennett 20:24
okay 

A.J. Otjen 20:24
was was established that's how it's the town's over a hundred years old and the main street of town is a perfect movie set for a western movie 

Rich Bennett 20:35
you know 

A.J. Otjen 20:35
it's a big story's brick faces you know taught it you know yeah so it's 

Rich Bennett 20:41
it's so I got to get out there is what you're trying to tell me AJ 

A.J. Otjen 20:43
probably over a minute yeah yeah but it is surround it's you know but it's the main street is going 

Rich Bennett 20:50
yeah 

A.J. Otjen 20:51
through forests you know and and the bear tooth mountains are granite you know and you go you have to go the bear tooth mountains call something the bear tooth highway which is one of the highest highways in the world to get into Yellowstone Park 

Rich Bennett 21:05
mm 

A.J. Otjen 21:05
so they have learned how to live in that kind of country you know it's it's not for the week 

Rich Bennett 21:12
Wow now this this book is 

A.J. Otjen 21:15
because in the summer it's in the summer it's fire it's fire season in the winter it's you 

Rich Bennett 21:21
I 

A.J. Otjen 21:21
know 

Rich Bennett 21:21
have a land season 30 

A.J. Otjen 21:23
degrees below zero and you know 

Rich Bennett 21:25
yeah 

A.J. Otjen 21:26
yes six feet of snow 

Rich Bennett 21:27
and yeah yeah and then fall you fall you and spring out watch after all the rains it's just like one thing after another wow 

A.J. Otjen 21:36
it's right 

Rich Bennett 21:37
yes 

A.J. Otjen 21:37
slide here 

Rich Bennett 21:38
now this is on audio form as well right the book in Audible 

A.J. Otjen 21:45
yes it's it's it's on candle and audible and in print all 

Rich Bennett 21:49
so who who does the who does the voice is it one voice for the audible 

A.J. Otjen 21:57
yeah it's one Andy Pearson he's a real pro yeah we we're 

Rich Bennett 22:00
yeah 

A.J. Otjen 22:00
happy 

Rich Bennett 22:01
okay 

A.J. Otjen 22:01
Pearson does the audible he's a really nice 

Rich Bennett 22:04
all right you see 

A.J. Otjen 22:06
because it gets really I mean there's moments when it's there's moments when it's 

Rich Bennett 22:09
right 

A.J. Otjen 22:09
really dramatic and there's moments when it's 

Rich Bennett 22:12
really whoa 

A.J. Otjen 22:13
really yeah it's 

Rich Bennett 22:13
it's gonna say plus you got different characters and 

A.J. Otjen 22:15
he had to capture 

Rich Bennett 22:16
well not characters but you have different people 

A.J. Otjen 22:19
yes man and man and women yeah so he I thought he was a really nice job you know he didn't pretend to be a woman with it when the when he was when he was quoted the woman 

Rich Bennett 22:29
yeah 

A.J. Otjen 22:29
he just said it in a tone I thought he had a nice job with both 

Rich Bennett 22:32
so 

A.J. Otjen 22:33
women's books 

Rich Bennett 22:33
when you were writing this besides all the interviews and detiers and especially going from writing 

A.J. Otjen 22:39
mm-hmm 

Rich Bennett 22:39
curriculum 

A.J. Otjen 22:40
to this yes 

Rich Bennett 22:41
it's the toughest part for you 

A.J. Otjen 22:43
them 

Rich Bennett 22:43
writing 

A.J. Otjen 22:48
uh 

Rich Bennett 22:48
okay 

A.J. Otjen 22:49
probably working with Dan um because you know he uh he's just doesn't open up easily and and to get him to do that was um know he just it took he he actually I put this in the book he he likened it to being Cartman 

Rich Bennett 23:09
you 

A.J. Otjen 23:09
in South Park there was an episode I think we're 

Rich Bennett 23:12
god 

A.J. Otjen 23:12
there was an episode where aliens aliens came down and stuck a probe and he he he likened it to that episode yeah and he thought 

Rich Bennett 23:24
oh god 

A.J. Otjen 23:25
or or he said it was like therapy he yeah he he was going through therapy and you know firefighters 

Rich Bennett 23:32
will oh I 

A.J. Otjen 23:32
i 

Rich Bennett 23:32
know 

A.J. Otjen 23:33
admit that they need help they're the ones who come to give him you know but they never need help but he was going through therapy after the burn because it was really difficult psychological psychologically to get over as well so for anybody to ask for help to need help he said that you know working with me in the book was like therapy very similar to what he was going through with his psychiatrist and uh so that was that so that's you could imagine how how probing the questions were and you know that went way back you have to understand that right before a year before he um yet a year before he was burned his significant other had passed away so he was already with the you know it was real and the story gets goes on and on he was already what they call a grumpy old man and that that's a syndrome that firefighters have when they're not fighting fires nobody like sitting around in the firehouse waiting for a fire and 

Rich Bennett 24:30
yeah 

A.J. Otjen 24:30
they have it it's called the grumpy old man syndrome him being compounded by the loss of marnie and then um right There was a workman's comp guy that I talked to that he would, he paid all the bills and it was the largest workman's comp payout in Montana history because there were so many surgeries and so much wound care and the guy and the guy read the read these invoices on a daily basis and he just go, God, this guy must be a tough old bastard. And so I said, so I said, okay, so to get through this, he was a tough old. He was first, he was a grumpy old man. Now he's a tough old bastard. And then the nurses there just thought he was the worst patient because he never would admit he was in pain, never wanted help would always say I'm fine and fine and fine, leave me alone. So they would, they say he was stubborn old fool. So, so he was three things. He was a grumpy old man. He was a tough old bastard. Then he was, then he was a stubborn old fool and I said he had to be all three of those things to get through this horrible ordeal. And then to come out the other end of it. And he's the first one. He's the first one to say I am who I am and that's and take it or leave it. Take me or leave me, I am who I am. And so that I had to capture that and be honest about it in the book or everybody who knows him and everybody knows him and still loves him, you know, would know that the book wasn't true. And I would write something and it would be kind of harsh and I'd send it to him and I say, "Damn, this is pretty harsh, but you know, I just want you to see it before." And he said, "Well, is it true? And I'd say, "Yeah, it's true." And he said, "Well, then put it in there." So, so that was them. But beyond that, I probably rewrote the rewrote it 20 times trying to get it to be trying to structure it so that 

Rich Bennett 26:21
yeah 

A.J. Otjen 26:22
it was an actual story and the story unfolded. And folded in a way that it started with the first chapter was the hardest thing to write because in one chapter I had to say, "Okay, this is Red Lodge and this is the Firehouse and this is Dan." I had to explain, I had to get that backstory in there in the first 

Rich Bennett 26:46
chapter and not 

A.J. Otjen 26:47
be boring and say, "And something, and something, and something entities about to happen to all of him." So, so to get the backstory in the first chapter without, you know, without people like the 

Rich Bennett 26:59
"Well, 

A.J. Otjen 26:59
saying, 

Rich Bennett 27:00
yeah, that's a lot to cover." 

A.J. Otjen 27:04
Yes, it was a lot to cover. Here's Red Lodge. And here's, and here's, and here's, and here's Fire, and here's the Firefighters and here's Dan, and something entities about to happen to all of them. That's what I had to get into the first chapter. And so the back story was, you know, I had to get that in before, you know, 

Rich Bennett 27:26
before 

A.J. Otjen 27:26
in the... 

Rich Bennett 27:27
the fire 

A.J. Otjen 27:27
Or 

Rich Bennett 27:27
started, 

A.J. Otjen 27:28
anything 

Rich Bennett 27:28
yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 27:28
interesting happened is what I... Right, right. And honestly, the fire didn't start until chapter 5 and he didn't get burned over until chapter 

Rich Bennett 27:37
Well, 

A.J. Otjen 27:37
6. 

Rich Bennett 27:38
which is good because, well, you mentioned that how he lost his significant other, which I'm sure you cover in the book as well, which that's just... 

A.J. Otjen 27:49
Yeah, that's in chapter 3, I 

Rich Bennett 27:51
An opportunity to really 

A.J. Otjen 27:52
think. Chapter 3, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:53
learn more about Dan before the fire even starts, and to build that 

A.J. Otjen 27:59
up. 

Rich Bennett 27:59
love 

A.J. Otjen 27:59
That's right. 

Rich Bennett 28:00
You know, for that grumpy old man, 

A.J. Otjen 28:04
Yeah, I said, "Dan, I have to explain to people 

Rich Bennett 28:09
yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 28:09
why... why they should care about you and why everybody else cares about you. That has to be evident." You know, and I tried to make characters out of the engines because everybody, every Firefighter, sort of, claims an engine. This is my engine. I'm in the engine boss, and this is my engine, and my stuff is going into the... in the glove box because they all had their favorite engine. So I tried to make characters out of the engine, like make characters out of the National 

Rich Bennett 28:34
Service. 

A.J. Otjen 28:34
Weather 

Rich Bennett 28:35
Right. 

A.J. Otjen 28:35
Out of the radio frequency, because all those things, they all... all that stuff had an important part to play in the Fire. So I had to explain all that stuff before the Fire, because in my mind, as a layman, I wanted to know how the senior Firefighter get himself into position to get burned, right, because they're all trained so well. They all know what they're doing. They all have a protocol. And they were following that protocol. 

Rich Bennett 29:04
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 29:04
Right. So what went wrong? And there was an incident report that said, "This should not have happened. This was 

Rich Bennett 29:11
out." 

A.J. Otjen 29:11
a 

Rich Bennett 29:11
Well, 

A.J. Otjen 29:11
freak 

Rich Bennett 29:13
I was going to say, does 

A.J. Otjen 29:14
I 

Rich Bennett 29:14
anybody... And 

A.J. Otjen 29:15
put it in 

Rich Bennett 29:18
there. Does anybody really know the personality of the Fire? 

A.J. Otjen 29:26
Well, it's... I would say that it's... 

Rich Bennett 29:30
Yeah, I mean, it's... 

A.J. Otjen 29:32
It's neurotic. Yeah, it's a fire and and I and I those are two words I used to describe fire in the 

Rich Bennett 29:38
Mm-hmm. 

A.J. Otjen 29:38
book fire. It's you know and and as often as they try to have a plan to predict its behavior. The plan 

Rich Bennett 29:46
work. 

A.J. Otjen 29:46
rarely 

Rich Bennett 29:46
Oh yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 29:47
Because they're trying to predict the behavior of a film in advance of the fire and their plans hardly ever work because the behavior of a fire is unpredictable. 

Rich Bennett 29:58
Yeah, otherwise they went in less. 

A.J. Otjen 30:00
Yeah, actually they, you know they have more and more equipment more and more and more and more eight. Yeah, more and more computer software now that is getting much better predicting the way the fire goes. But everything what controls the fire is wind wind is everything in the fire. Yeah. And when does what got Dan. When is what when does what got? California wind is everything in fire and everybody Montana knows that everybody Montana knows that you know we can see we can see a little bit. He flame two miles away. And as long as there's no wind like okay they'll put that out. But if there's any wind we're all starting to pack up. 

Rich Bennett 30:34
Yeah, 

A.J. Otjen 30:34
and ready to fly. 

Rich Bennett 30:35
Oh well yeah it's like you said because you got you have all that fuel out there and that wind just it's just going 

A.J. Otjen 30:42
to. 

Rich Bennett 30:44
Ignite 

A.J. Otjen 30:45
it 

Rich Bennett 30:46
yeah. So got 

A.J. Otjen 30:46
right. 

Rich Bennett 30:47
Yeah, I say J as the 

A.J. Otjen 30:50
And there's nothing they can do except tell us that 

Rich Bennett 30:52
yeah. right. 

A.J. Otjen 30:53
evacuate 

Rich Bennett 30:53
So as the author. How did capturing dance story actually impact you personally. 

A.J. Otjen 31:03
Oh, wow. 

Well, it I think it made me become more open to people. Mm I was I was I was never as close up as a 

Rich Bennett 31:16
hmm. 

A.J. Otjen 31:17
Dan. But I I never I mean some people just naturally are open people and you know And embrace everybody and everything and I don't think I was that and I am much more open to everyone I meet. I made so many friends to this process burn survivors. People in red lodge. Dance friends dance family. I feel like I you know really become close to a lot of people that I never would have. You know thought that I would you know be open to these kind of relationships and people because it was so emotional and so it 

Rich Bennett 31:52
yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 31:52
took so much trust to do it. That's one. And the other thing is being able to you know I found myself I had to fall in love and I remember whenever writers asked me what's what's what's the key to doing this. I say. I think you have to fall in love with your subject matter to to capture the. Cap if you're going to capture the pain and the emotions of. Anybody in your book the community you know Dan you have to fall in love with your subject matter to understand what they were going through and get that on the page. No matter how much it makes you why you know unless you are there and feeling it with them. You're not going to write the story. You're not going to get it. And that would be my recommendation to any writers fall in love. 

Rich Bennett 32:43
got. 

A.J. Otjen 32:43
You've just 

Rich Bennett 32:43
Yeah, 

A.J. Otjen 32:44
I love 

Rich Bennett 32:45
it. And actually what what did 

A.J. Otjen 32:46
You 

Rich Bennett 32:46
you learn. 

A.J. Otjen 32:47
cannot. And maybe. 

Rich Bennett 32:49
Oh I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

A.J. Otjen 32:52
From the. No. I know I was done. 

Rich Bennett 32:56
it. 

A.J. Otjen 32:56
What was 

Rich Bennett 32:56
Oh I say I said actually what what would have you learned from Dan's journey yourself. 

A.J. Otjen 33:05
Well, probably what he learned which is you have to ask for. Which he could not do and did not do. 

Rich Bennett 33:13
time. 

A.J. Otjen 33:14
Very long 

Rich Bennett 33:14
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 33:15
The burn survivors have a saying which is between the past and the future is accepted. And Dan would not accept his new life. Not at all. And until he met some of the other burn survivors. Many of which are amputees. And just as tough as he is. You know race car drivers like electricians. You know and they've lost their hands. They left their arms. They've lost their legs. And so he's you know he's upset because he can't he couldn't go from a five pound weight to a three pound weight to a five pound weight because his hands were so burned. And then he saw he met this guy named Mark who didn't have any fingers and he's like well heck. If if Mark can do it, maybe I can do You know, so he started he didn't until you see it. You don't believe 

Rich Bennett 34:07
right 

A.J. Otjen 34:07
and it was the burn survivor is that finally can once him that maybe he could get back to normal. And another and a couple of nurses that said you got to get ready for the pack test which is what firefighters have to go go three miles in 45 minutes with 

Rich Bennett 34:23
pounds. 

A.J. Otjen 34:24
45 And at first he just he couldn't lift his legs to get out of bed. and it just never occurred to him that he could ever be a firefighter again. Well, he started, you know, and, he would, whenever he would tell me stories of the nurses, like Emily, his favorite nurse, who was short and Dan's 6'2" and he would, he, the first time he stood up from the bed and leaned on her and stood up and took his first step and then she said, take another, now take another. He cried remembering her and doing that for him and then, yeah, and then, and then, I think there's another nurse that, um, before he could leave the hospital, he had to learn how to swallow again because the, you know, they had so much stuff down his throat so long he couldn't swallow. And they said, you can't leave the hospital until you can swallow again. And he wanted to go home so badly and so there were some swallow exercises and, and a nurse came in on her day off to help him practice swallowing and when he told me that story, he started crying because, you know, he, he, the idea that people cared about him that much 

and would help him that much touched him at to the point where he, he would cry, you know, he could not believe people cared about him that much and would help him that much because he does not ask for help. That's not who he is and when people do help him, it just, it makes him emotional. 

Rich Bennett 35:49
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 35:50
And so to see him like that, you know, it's like, okay, now I, I, I think that I'm, you know, I think we're all like, 

Rich Bennett 35:59
yeah, oh. 

A.J. Otjen 35:59
We were all, we all have a hard time accepting, asking for help and it touches us when people care about us so much that they go out of the way to help us. So part of, you know, part of what I look for is, when can I help others? And can I touch others when they need help? Because it really provides a human connection that we're not aware of. These people and one of the reason Dan wanted to get this book written was because he wanted to say thank you to all of these people. 

Rich Bennett 36:30
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 36:30
Right. And these people do this day in and day out and they never get recognized. Right? These are good people who step up to greatness every day, every day. And they send people like Dan home, you know, and they and we needed to let people know that this happens. And if I've had a few people who call me and say, now every time I see an ambulance or a fire truck, go buy, I have a whole new appreciation of what these people do. And they do it every day. 

Rich Bennett 37:04
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 37:04
Right? 

Rich Bennett 37:05
That's something. I mean, as a Marine Corps veteran, we here, thank you for your service all the time. Every time I see a first responder police, fire fighter, EMT, whatever. 

A.J. Otjen 37:17
Right. 

Rich Bennett 37:17
Third of the ones that I'm thanking 

A.J. Otjen 37:19
Thanks. 

Rich Bennett 37:19
because, and you're right, we all have that same behavior. We don't we don't like to ask for help because we feel as if word of the ones that should be helping you. You almost feel invincible. Yeah, because one of the first things, especially in the military, one of the first things we're talking is we're expendable, you know, and 

A.J. Otjen 37:45
yes, and you accept your own mortality. 

Rich Bennett 37:48
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 37:48
And first responders are some, and first responders except their own mortality, but they don't accept others mortality 

Rich Bennett 37:56
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 37:57
or their families 

Rich Bennett 37:58
No. 

A.J. Otjen 37:58
mortality. You know, they're, you know, it's okay if I die and Dan has always said, I'm not afraid to die. It's okay if I die. And he feels that way today, you know, the fact that he's got cancer, terminal, he has terminal cancer. And that's why he's not here. 

Rich Bennett 38:12
Who are you looking at? How many? 

A.J. Otjen 38:13
But he wants everybody to know I'm not afraid. 

Rich Bennett 38:15
It look how many lives he's saved. 

A.J. Otjen 38:17
He says, has, 

Rich Bennett 38:20
he 

A.J. Otjen 38:21
and he, but he wants everybody know right now. He's not afraid to die. He's never been afraid. He wasn't when he was burned and he's got people to care for him. He's living in beautiful Montana right now. And so, you know, be happy for him. He's had, he says, I have had the greatest life imaginable. So don't worry about me. He has, he says a very positive message right now. In fact, he says, if anybody has pity for me, I'm going to cut their head 

Rich Bennett 38:46
what. 

A.J. Otjen 38:46
off. That's what he, 

Rich Bennett 38:47
God, 

A.J. Otjen 38:47
that's 

Rich Bennett 38:48
I love that. 

A.J. Otjen 38:48
Yeah. So, yeah. He's a tough guy. You remember, he's in fact, I put 

Rich Bennett 38:54
He's 

A.J. Otjen 38:54
that in the 

Rich Bennett 38:54
a gr- 

A.J. Otjen 38:54
book. But I ever doubted 

Rich Bennett 38:56
Be 

A.J. Otjen 38:57
it. 

Rich Bennett 38:57
old tough bastard was it or something like that? 

A.J. Otjen 39:00
Yeah, I think it was a grumpy old man. A tough 

Rich Bennett 39:04
bitch 

A.J. Otjen 39:04
and a stubborn old 

Rich Bennett 39:05
God, 

A.J. Otjen 39:05
fool. But everybody, when I, when I, but everybody describes him with one word, 

Rich Bennett 39:12
yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 39:12
tough. He's it. And they said, and they would even say, we're lucky that this happened to Dan because he's so tough and he survived and he came back home. You know, if it happened to anybody else, they probably not, they probably would not have survived. 

Rich Bennett 39:28
Geez. is 

A.J. Otjen 39:30
He 

Rich Bennett 39:30
tough. 

A.J. Otjen 39:31
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:32
Actually, after you finish the book, did Dan read 

A.J. Otjen 39:38
Oh, yeah. Well, he, you know, he read it throughout. I mean, we, he read it probably 20 times like I did. He approved every word. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:46
it? Okay. 

A.J. Otjen 39:47
Yeah, because some people have read it and said, some people said, my gosh, does he, does he know that you wrote all this about him? And I'm like, of course he knows he approved it. Yeah. He approved every word. You know, and they went, oh my gosh, you said this and you said this and that about him. I said, well, yeah, he said he kept saying, tell the truth that I did, you know. I'm, I can't believe you called him a severinal fool. 

Rich Bennett 40:12
Well, well, yes. Well, yes. I'm going to put you on. 

A.J. Otjen 40:14
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 40:16
So you movies have trailers, right? Podcasts even have trailers. If you 

A.J. Otjen 40:22
Right. 

Rich Bennett 40:23
could create a trailer for the book, 

I guess in your own words, explain to everybody, do explain everybody what the trailer would be. So you can, they know why they need to buy this book. Did that make sense? Well, I just said. 

A.J. Otjen 40:47
Yeah. Um, okay. I wish I had the book in front of me, because I think I, I think I wrote it once and it's on the back of the book. 

Rich Bennett 40:56
Um, 

A.J. Otjen 40:57
but it's basically during during the summer, during the summer of hell in a very small town, um, a town, praise for one of their own firefighter, uh, to survive unbelievable burns. There's a, you know, Dan Stephenson is trying to outrun a 60 mile wall, wall of fire, but it catches up to him. And now they pray for him to survive. 

Rich Bennett 41:26
Let 

A.J. Otjen 41:27
me say that. Are you going to, are you going to record this and use it as your promo. 

Rich Bennett 41:30
Oh, 

A.J. Otjen 41:31
you guys say that. 

Rich Bennett 41:31
Oh, no, no, you're, you're good. You're good at some. Yeah. I'm a way to read the book. Actually, I'll probably, I'll probably get the audible version too and listen to it because I love listening to books as well. 

A.J. Otjen 41:43
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 41:44
Love listening to him and read him something about 

A.J. Otjen 41:47
Yeah, but basically, you know, what, what happened? Yeah, what happened was, you know, a 60, a 60, a 60 foot high, a 60 foot 

Rich Bennett 41:56
God. 

A.J. Otjen 41:56
wall of fire caught up with a Montana firefighter. He tried to outrun it, but he failed to outrun the fall of the wall. And then this small town prayed for him to come home to them because they were going through hell and they needed him to come back home. 

And 

Rich Bennett 42:19
you mentioned about his cancer. Oh, and I know a lot of listeners are probably thinking that it's that he gotten, he got cancer from the fire, but it's, yeah, explain to them that. 

A.J. Otjen 42:33
Let me, let me first of all, let me first of all say that in 20 and 2023, which is two years after the burn, I got this text that said 4310, like what's that? He said, that's the time of my Pact test. So in 2020, in 23, he became a firefighter again. He passed his Pact test. 

Rich Bennett 42:54
Oh, wow. 

A.J. Otjen 42:54
Even though a week after that, he was going back in a week after that, he was going back for his last skin graft. And he said, I was bleeding like a stuck peg with a, when I got to Utah, because I worked so hard to pass my practice. So he was back on the fire line in 2020. 

Rich Bennett 43:08
Holy cow. 

A.J. Otjen 43:10
Let me make, let me make that clear. So, and then he didn't, so the cancer diagnosis was right before we published a book. He started having a very painful cough. And, you know, and we, the doctor, you know, going to the doctors, blood tests, x-rays, we kind of knew what the, what the, what the diagnosis was going to be. And sure about, you know, it came back small cell lung cancer. And the only reason he was not on a fire line in 2024 is because he started chemo. 

Rich Bennett 43:40
Okay. 

A.J. Otjen 43:41
Yeah, so 

Rich Bennett 43:42
All right. 

A.J. Otjen 43:43
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 43:43
I don't know if you can answer this or not. But because, you know, when we, before we started recording, he told me why Dan couldn't be here and just to hear, 

A.J. Otjen 43:53
you know, 

Rich Bennett 43:54
his thing that he's been through. And even what, you know, the community of, you know, was it red lodge. Right. It has been through. Do you know if there are any nonprofits that help the firefighters in that area or anybody that's been through, you know, so many different tragedies out there. 

A.J. Otjen 44:19
Well, they did start a GoFundMe account for Dan as soon as he was burned and they raised a lot of thousands of dollars, thousands and thousands. There are found there, there's a red lodge fire, the red lodge fire rescue station has their, it's foundation. Okay. And they have fundraiser bill. 

Rich Bennett 44:36
Okay. 

A.J. Otjen 44:37
you should look every fire station is local. 

Rich Bennett 44:41
Yeah, 

A.J. Otjen 44:41
pretty much. And they all need money. All of them need. 

Rich Bennett 44:45
So they're all volunteers. 

A.J. Otjen 44:46
They're and 70. 70% of firefighters have volunteers 

Rich Bennett 44:50
right. 

A.J. Otjen 44:51
And sometimes they'll just grab their blue jeans and jump on a truck and go fight a fire. And that's it's, you know, it's just nuts that these people are not supported with more money. And, and so anytime there's a chance to give money, raise money for your local fire department, 

Rich Bennett 45:07
it. 

A.J. Otjen 45:07
do 

Rich Bennett 45:07
Yeah, yeah, because I know we're out here. Well, at least in my county, uh, most of the fire 

A.J. Otjen 45:14
are 

Rich Bennett 45:15
volunteers. And you're. 

A.J. Otjen 45:17
Yes, they are. 

Rich Bennett 45:18
And the thing is. 

A.J. Otjen 45:19
But, but, but usually well 

Rich Bennett 45:20
trained. 

A.J. Otjen 45:21
trained. 

Rich Bennett 45:21
Oh, yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 45:21
Well Yeah. But professional organization, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:25
Those, those of you listening. And if you can do it, do it. Do it for Dan your local fire department. 

A.J. Otjen 45:32
Hey, go 

Rich Bennett 45:33
sometimes it's even money, but sometimes believe it or not, a lot of your fire departments are even looking for like sofas, you know, stuff for the firehouse. 

A.J. Otjen 45:42
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 45:42
Stokes, 

A.J. Otjen 45:44
yes, 

Rich Bennett 45:44
yes, I'll say check with your local fire department and see what they need and donate to them because they they. Look, they're putting their lives on the line to protect you. 

A.J. Otjen 45:58
So, right. 

Rich Bennett 45:58
Yeah, it's return the favor. So, AJ, what's the big thing that you hope readers will take away from burned over. 

A.J. Otjen 46:10
Uh, well, I'll tell you what I the feedback I've gotten so far is that the burn survivors really 

Rich Bennett 46:16
Mm 

A.J. Otjen 46:16
like. 

Rich Bennett 46:16
hmm. 

A.J. Otjen 46:16
Maybe happy because I tried to do right by the burn survivors. The town of red lodge really likes it. And that may be happy because I really want to be right by the town of red. 

Rich Bennett 46:24
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 46:25
I'm hoping I'm hoping that the people all the first of our first responders feel like they are being respected and think that's what I want people to get out of it that people really recognize what these people do and, um, and, and that they and and appreciate that entire environment. 

Rich Bennett 46:46
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 46:47
Because I don't I don't think people all do all the time go into a clinic or a hospital or treat these first responders with respect they deserve. And that I hope happens when they read this book. 

Rich Bennett 47:02
Now, how far do you live from or you yourself from red lodge? 

A.J. Otjen 47:07
No, I actually live in a town north west of a town called Laurel. So I got an hour away from red lodge. 

Rich Bennett 47:12
Okay. Does red lodge actually get a lot of tourists and all to it? Do you know? 

A.J. Otjen 47:18
Oh, yeah. Because because they because they drive through it to go over Berentges Highway to get to Yellowstone Park. Oh, at least a million people drive through it 

Rich Bennett 47:27
really. 

A.J. Otjen 47:28
Right. Yeah. Right down Main Street. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 47:30
Holy cow. 

A.J. Otjen 47:32
That that high. Yeah. That highway. People will fly into buildings and then drive right through red lodge to get to Yellowstone Park. Yeah. Yellowstone Park, I think, has 12 million visitors a year. And so and there's one, two, three, four or five inches. Five entrances. 

Rich Bennett 47:49
Mm hmm. 

A.J. Otjen 47:49
part. And so over the Berentges highway, one, one entrance into Yellowstone and considered probably the most beautiful entrance I can't drive it because I'm afraid of heights. I have to have somebody else drive the car to go that way. Because it's 

Rich Bennett 48:05
Yeah, 

A.J. Otjen 48:05
it's a very high highway straight straight down. nope. Yeah. It's 

Rich Bennett 48:10
Yeah. Nope, 

A.J. Otjen 48:10
it's it's considered. I think Charles Charles Pearl once said it was the most beautiful highway, the most beautiful highway in the world. I believe Charles Coral said that in one of his shows. And it is something. 

Rich Bennett 48:21
expected. 

A.J. Otjen 48:21
It's 

Rich Bennett 48:22
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 48:23
all the go. 

Rich Bennett 48:23
I 

A.J. Otjen 48:24
The Berentges mountains are spectacular. 

Rich Bennett 48:27
Oh, oh, you know what? I'm on the red lodge website, right? Oh, yeah, I'm looking. I think that's that hot. The fair. Two type. Yep. No. Uh-huh. Yeah, I 

A.J. Otjen 48:38
go 

Rich Bennett 48:38
would. 

A.J. Otjen 48:38
to the Berentges highway and you'll see. Okay, 

Rich Bennett 48:40
Yeah, 

A.J. Otjen 48:40
that's that's red lodge is right is right is the entrance into the Berentges highway. 

Rich Bennett 48:47
Yeah, I would not be able to drive that. I would. Yeah, I would. I would because if I did drive it, I pray I'd have to drive my eyes close because I want to look down and I don't want 

A.J. Otjen 48:58
that. 

Rich Bennett 48:58
to do 

A.J. Otjen 48:59
Yeah. Even around. Even when I'm the passenger, I have to put my head between my knees and hold on with white knuckles. 

Rich Bennett 49:07
Yeah. 

A.J. Otjen 49:08
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:08
It's, it's weird. I've never had a fear of heights and then I don't know what happened. Um, in a fear of bridges. And it's a real. Last summer. I overcame the one fear of the bridges. So I'm still kind of nervous driving over, but I will. But the mountains. No, it's just there's. There's no parachute going to help you. 

A.J. Otjen 49:36
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:37
Eh, no, forget it. Alright, so before I get to my last question, is there anything you would like to add? 

A.J. Otjen 49:46
Uhm, let me think. Well, uh, I think that when people read this book, I've been told that, you know, it's a quick read. I have to put it down to collect their emotions, because it's, you know, it's dramatic and then it's emotional. 

I think I hope people read it with love, because that's how I met, that's what I tried to get across, was the love, and I'm hoping that's the main thing people get out of it. Family, community, uhm, asking for help. Survival and inspiration. 

Rich Bennett 50:27
This, this is a perfect question for you, uhm, especially if, because I've written this book and this comes from one of our listeners, Hilary. And, I'm just going to rephrase a little bit, because with this, with all the interviews you did in everything, and I'm sure there were times when it was hard. What were some ways you gathered the strength to keep going? 

A.J. Otjen 50:58
I think, I would think of how many people were counting on me to get it right. 

I'll tell you something I have not, I haven't said, told anybody. Dan's brother, Kelly, who was, who has recently passed. But, uhm, there were times when I did not want to keep going, frankly. And, I would call Kelly, Dan's brother. And, I would say, "yeah, we are here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And, he would say, "you've got to keep going." This is an important book, and it's going to help a lot of people. And, I would just take a breath. And, he would basically, Kelly always talk, Kelly always talked me down. And, Kelly was in a very important part of this book in this story. Because, when Dan got hurt, he came running. And, he stayed by Dan's side and helped, helped him in Utah. And, he was the reason Dan could come home early, because Kelly learned how to do wound care. Kelly learned how to change bandages. And, Kelly moved back to red lodge with Dan and, and lived with him until he, Dan was able to take care of himself. And so, in the book, and we dedicated, we dedicated the book to Kelly, because he died right before it's published. And, I, so I would say, in a lot of ways, Kelly was, who, who kept me going, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 52:30
Mmm, God. Now, how far did Kelly live from red lodge? 

A.J. Otjen 52:36
He actually lived in Seattle, outside of Seattle, Washington. 

Rich Bennett 52:40
Oh, wow. 

A.J. Otjen 52:41
And, he got, and he, and, and, and, and, and Kelly is is a man who walks with God, basically, and he told me when, and when I interviewed, when I force interviewed him, he said, well, when they called me the first thing I did was get on my knees and pray and reach out to Dan mentally, because I knew he was suffering. And, I knew that he was going to lose agency and he's not a man who likes to, who can stand losing agency. So, I, and then I got, gathered my things, I got in my car and I headed for Salt Lake City. And, he basically never left Dan's side. 

Rich Bennett 53:18
Wow. Wow. Well, AJ, I want to thank you so much. Those of you listening, again, make sure you purchase the book where you can get in the audible or Kindle, burned over 

A.J. Otjen 53:31
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 53:32
the survival of Montana Firefighter Dan Stephenson by AJ Ochen. 

A.J. Otjen 53:37
Mm-hmm. 

Rich Bennett 53:37
And you could actually even go to AJ Ochen, which is O-T-J-E-N-K-M. 

A.J. Otjen 53:44
J-E-E-N-P-S. 

Rich Bennett 53:45
And purchase 

A.J. Otjen 53:46
Mm-hmm. 

Rich Bennett 53:46
it. And if, 

A.J. Otjen 53:48
yeah, it didn't look, yeah, I'm like, you got a box and then yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:52
And make sure you leave a full review, purchase copies for everybody else and, uh, don't forget to donate to your local firefighters and first responders. So, AJ, thanks so much. 

A.J. Otjen 54:05
Oh, thank you. This has been great. I really appreciate the conversation. Thank you so 

Rich Bennett 54:09
Thanks. 

A.J. Otjen 54:09
much. 

Rich Bennett 54:11
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love it if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with rich, Bennett dot com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care, be kind and keep the conversations going. You know, it takes a lot to put a podcast together. and my sponsors help add a lot, but I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing, software, the hosting, and so forth. There's a lot that goes into putting this together. So I wanna thank them and if you can please please visit their websites, visit their businesses, support them however you can. So please visit the following. Real-life prosthetics. Cutting-edge solutions. Restoring ability since 2001. Go to real-lifeprostetics.com. Full Circle Boards. Nobody does charcuterie like full-circle boards. Visit them at fullcircleboards.com. Sincerely, Sincerely, Sincerely soy your photography. Live in the moment. They'll capture it. Visit them at sincerelysoyer.com.