Hydrocodone, Humility, And Hope With Dr. Brett Cordes

Wendy & Rich 0:00
Hey everyone it's Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning 10 this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared an episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together we've shared laughs, tears, tears, and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next 10 years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios Hartford County living presents Conversations with Rich Bennett. 

No, no, no, no, it's

Rich Bennett 1:00
So what happens when the doctor becomes the patient. 

Brett Cordes 1:03
not true. 

Rich Bennett 1:04
Today you're going to hear a story that cuts deep into the heart of the medical profession. One of extraordinary achievement, unimaginable struggle, and powerful transformation. Dr. Brett Cordis was living what many we call the dream. And over-achieving well-respected physician in the Texas Medical Center building a thriving surgical practice. But behind the white coat was a secret. An addiction to prescription opiates that would one day become very public and nearly costing everything. His story didn't end in disgrace. It evolved into redemption. After battling cancer as a young man, and later fighting for his recovery from addiction, Brett has redefined his purpose. Today he's the burnout doc. A certified life coach, helping physicians overcome the very same pressures, burnout, and addiction that once nearly consumed him. In this episode, we'll talk about how cancer first inspired his path in the medicine. How his hidden addiction unraveled his career. how he's now using those life lessons 

Brett Cordes 2:18
And 

Rich Bennett 2:18
to support others in the profession. So if you've ever wondered what it truly takes to rebuild from rock bottom and how to transform pain into purpose, this is the episode for you. So first of all, Brett, I want to say number one, because you're in recovery, right? 

Brett Cordes 2:39
Yes 

Rich Bennett 2:39
So 

Brett Cordes 2:39
sir. 

Rich Bennett 2:40
I want to congratulate you on that, and I also want to congratulate you on helping others, and welcoming you to the show. Man, how's it going? 

Brett Cordes 2:48
It's going well. I appreciate you inviting me. I'm looking forward to it. Man, you made me understand I'm good on that intro. 

Rich Bennett 2:55
Well, you know, one of the things, especially if the intro, and I was going to ask you something else to start, but I think this is important because a lot of people don't, I don't think a lot of people realize how many doctors are actually struggling right now. And you're helping them. Roughly how many have you come across as you know of that's really struggling, whether it be with addiction or anything else? 

Brett Cordes 3:25
Well, you've got, you know, doctors aren't the first in line to ask for help. You know, 

Rich Bennett 3:30
right? 

Brett Cordes 3:31
And so, you know, someone's not going to know that a doctor's struggling, unless you are intimately involved with that, unless you're a family member, even even a peripheral family member, a lot of times you don't know, unless you're a spouse. 

Rich Bennett 3:43
Right. 

Brett Cordes 3:44
So, but the truth is, over half, 53% of all practicing physicians right now are burned out. 

Rich Bennett 3:52
Wow. 

Brett Cordes 3:53
So it's an epidemic problem. It's 

Rich Bennett 3:58
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 3:58
only going to get worse. 

Rich Bennett 4:00
All right. So I wanted to go back to the beginning, and I'm not when I say the beginning, I don't mean when you were in the womb. But before let's let's, let's what work our way up to the addiction and becoming a doctor and the cancer. It was the cancer that came first, right? Or was it the addiction? 

Brett Cordes 4:18
Yeah. No, it was the cancer, definitely. So I was, you know, I'll just start. I was born and raised in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And in my parent, I had a pretty normal childhood. My dad was a mathematics professor at LSU, at the college level in my mom. 

Rich Bennett 4:37
Nice. 

Brett Cordes 4:37
Tought English at LSU. So we lived in a very academic household. I mean, academics and achievement and awards and stuff. That, you know, those were replaced at tip-top priorities. 

Rich Bennett 4:50
Right. 

Brett Cordes 4:50
So, when I was 7, 8, 9 years old, I really started to kind of equate their love and acceptance with my achievements. And so, now this isn't something they ever told me or verbalized or even modeled really, but that's just kind of my misperception of what was going on. 

Rich Bennett 5:11
Right. 

Brett Cordes 5:12
And I mention that because that's going to be very important later on when we about, you know, the causes of the addiction. Um, but for now, you know, consider myself worth at this point in time, tied to my achievements and how well I'm doing. Anyway, I went to high school in Bat Rouge, went to college at LSU. And 

Rich Bennett 5:36
if you know mommy, asking, now, when were going to college, what were you majoring in? 

Brett Cordes 5:42
So, history. 

Rich Bennett 5:45
Oh, okay. 

Brett Cordes 5:46
Yeah. So, when I went to LSU, I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. We don't have, 

Rich Bennett 5:51
which most people don't. 

Brett Cordes 5:53
Right. Right. We don't have any doctors, we don't have any people in the medical field in my family, everyone's either an academician or an attorney, 

Rich Bennett 6:02
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 6:03
but no medical people. So, I had no idea. Now, my mom had always said she thought I'd make a good doctor because I have a good smile. For whatever that's worth. 

Rich Bennett 6:13
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 6:14
But uh, so at the tail end of my freshman year, and I'm majoring in history, I'm taking all the classes to, you know, graduate with that degree just because I like it. 

Rich Bennett 6:24
Right. 

Brett Cordes 6:25
But in March of 1996, I was diagnosed with Non-Haskins phoma, which is cancer of the lymph nodes. 

Rich Bennett 6:32
Oh wow. 

Brett Cordes 6:34
And I was 19 at the time. And that was obviously that was a huge shock. 

Rich Bennett 6:39
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 6:40
And it didn't go away at first. You know, we did treatment for six months, and then it recurred almost immediately. So, ultimately I had to go through more chemotherapy, stem cell transplant at Indianerson, Houston before it was cured. And overall it was a 16 month battle. 

Rich Bennett 6:59
Any idea what caused it? 

Brett Cordes 7:01
No. 

Rich Bennett 7:02
Wow. 

Brett Cordes 7:03
No. 

Rich Bennett 7:04
Anybody else in the family ever have cancer? 

Brett Cordes 7:07
Non-lymphoma. They've had other types of cancer but non-lymphoma. 

Rich Bennett 7:11
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 7:11
Um, my mom had breast cancer, my dad had prostate cancer. 

Rich Bennett 7:15
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 7:15
Um, but, uh, you know, that was tough for a 

Rich Bennett 7:19
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 7:19
1920 year old who thought, you know, he was invincible like, like most teenagers. Um, that was a wake up call in humility for sure. 

Rich Bennett 7:28
God. 

Brett Cordes 7:29
Uh, but it's still a lining that came, you know, honestly, there are a lot of good life lessons that came out of that. But, um, for these purposes is what made me want to go to medical school, 

Rich Bennett 7:38
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 7:38
you know? I had seen, I had seen medicine from the patient's perspective. And, um, I've, you know, I could see and what I considered good pros and cons for being a doctor in bedside manner, and this and that. And this person could have done that better. So I said, well, why don't I go to medical school and actually do it? So, um, I have to credit my cancer experience with, you know, eventually becoming a physician. 

Rich Bennett 8:04
Right. So you, you, after, I'd take it after the 16 months when you were in remission, that's when you went back to school and went for the medical field. 

Brett Cordes 8:16
Yeah. So I, it took 16 months, I only took one semester off. So, uh, 

Rich Bennett 8:21
oh, wow, 

Brett Cordes 8:23
so I was going to class, uh, sick, um, for, for a lot of that actually. 

Rich Bennett 8:30
God. 

Brett Cordes 8:31
Um, but, yeah, so I graduated in December of 1999 instead of May. 

Rich Bennett 8:36
Holy cow. I, sir, how soon before you became a doctor, 

Brett Cordes 8:41
um, so this was the graduated in December of 1999 and I finished medical school with my MD in 2004. 

Rich Bennett 8:50
2004. Okay. And that's how you ended up in Texas. 

Brett Cordes 8:53
Uh, I matched into a residency program in Houston. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:57
Okay. Okay. I, so 2004. So you had, you weren't in the field long then. 

Brett Cordes 9:04
When what? 

Rich Bennett 9:05
In the medical field, right? Because 2004 is 2005. When, when did you, when did you get out of the medical field? as 

Brett Cordes 9:15
When 

Rich Bennett 9:15
far as being a doctor. 

Brett Cordes 9:16
When did I get out of it? 

Rich Bennett 9:18
Yeah. Well, because you're no longer a practicing surgeon, right? 

Brett Cordes 9:21
Right. Correct. Oh, 2023 was my last year. 

Rich Bennett 9:24
Okay. So recently, 

Brett Cordes 9:26
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 9:26
okay. So I'm, all right. See, this is where, who, all right, your father was the math wizz, right? 

Brett Cordes 9:33
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 9:33
Yeah. This is where he would yell at me because I'm thinking 20, you know, 2004 is what you said. Okay. So you were only in the field for 10 years or whatever. I keep forgetin' that that was over 20 years 

Brett Cordes 9:47
ago. 

Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 9:48
yeah, I keep thinking the '80s are still 20 years ago. It's an age thing, okay! Brett, no, don't yell at me! 

Brett Cordes 9:56
Well, I was in the field for 19 years. 

Rich Bennett 9:59
Wow. 

Brett Cordes 9:59
It wasn't. Yeah, it was a good bit. 

Rich Bennett 10:02
Okay, so, alright, so you're in the field, and how did the addiction come about? 

Brett Cordes 10:10
Okay, well let me back up because during, during my cancer banner, and remember this was when I was 19 and 20. 

Rich Bennett 10:17
Right. 

Brett Cordes 10:18
Um, I was prescribed opias for pain. Now, I didn't have 

Rich Bennett 10:23
pain 

Brett Cordes 10:23
a lot of 

Rich Bennett 10:24
really 

Brett Cordes 10:25
with the lymphoma. It didn't, it didn't include my bones or anything like that, but I went through several surgical procedures and a little biopsies and things, so I needed pain medication here and there, and I very distinctly remember when I would take it, it would, it would feel like maybe a couple of beers. 

Rich Bennett 10:42
'right'. 

Brett Cordes 10:42
It would be a A little, a little bit of a buzz. It was, it was okay, but it certainly wasn't anything to write home about. Uhm, I, I didn't, I never considered taking them when I wasn't in pain. I never considered taking them to get high, so to speak. It just never occurred to me, you know, but 

Rich Bennett 10:57
yeah. 

Brett Cordes 10:58
They were, they were pleasant, but they weren't anything earth-shatter. Uhm, and so, I started working with a private practice in Houston in 2009, I graduated residency. Uhm, and so, you know, everything was absolutely perfect, like you said in the intro. I mean, I really was living my dream, I had, 

Rich Bennett 11:18
right. 

Brett Cordes 11:19
You know, Mary, my wife and I had two healthy young kids living in the suburbs, working in the medical center. I loved it. I mean, I loved going to work, I loved my patients, I loved the operating room, uhm, and everything was phenomenal. So, I think it was around five years into private practice, so this, this would put us around 2014. Uhm, 

Rich Bennett 11:41
right. 

Brett Cordes 11:42
I started to get, uhm, kind of bored, and now looking back on it, you know, with my retro spectoscope. Uhm, when I can look back and have time to analyze it, what I was really feeling was a lack of fulfillment. But at the time, I just kind of felt bored, because I had been, you know, I had been climbing this mountain my entire life, this mountain of achievement. You know, high school, college, med school, residency. This test, that test, this certification. Uhm, I mean, I was thirty-two years old before I got my first real paycheck, so... 

Rich Bennett 12:15
Wow! 

Brett Cordes 12:16
I was uhm, it was a long time, and so instead of, instead of relaxing, and instead of living in the moment and being present, uhm, and enjoying, you know, the fruits of my labor, 

Rich Bennett 12:29
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 12:30
The only thing that was on my mind really was, okay, what's next, you know, what's the next challenge, what's the next achievement, what's the next accolade, or whatever. 

Rich Bennett 12:39
Right. 

Brett Cordes 12:40
There was never a time where I just relaxed and enjoyed 

Rich Bennett 12:43
it. Wow! Cal, man! Thirty-two before you... 

That just... Yeah, I can understand why you would be bored. 

Brett Cordes 12:55
*laughs* 

Rich Bennett 12:55
I would be pulling my hair out. Uh, what little bit I have left now. I mean, that's just... Wow! So, you were doing the prescription opiates, but it just felt like you were just getting like a slight buzz from drinking, that was it. 

Brett Cordes 13:12
That was when I was nineteen. 

Rich Bennett 13:14
That's when you were nineteen, 

Brett Cordes 13:16
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 13:16
okay. 

Brett Cordes 13:16
so what happened is it was just one random Friday afternoon and my routine on Fridays was I'd get off of work earlier, around 230, go home and my wife and I would hang out at the pool with the kids and I would drink a couple of, you know, beers and we'd start our weekend. Um, but on a particular Friday there was nothing special about it. A drug rep had brought in some cough medicine samples that had hydrocodone in it. And so when I saw those, you know, my first thought was, "Oh, I remember hydrocodone." That's what the pain pills were. Those were okay. You know what I'll do? I'll take one of these cough medicine samples home instead of cracking open a couple of Budlines. I'll just take the hydrocodone. 

Rich Bennett 14:00
Take that instead. Wow! 

Brett Cordes 14:02
Yeah, and so what happened this time was that it was an earth shattering experience. It was the most intense and prolonged euphoria I'd ever felt my entire life. And 

Rich Bennett 14:17
scared of hell out of you? 

Brett Cordes 14:19
No, it didn't scare me. It was the best, it was the best ever. It was 

Rich Bennett 14:23
Really? 

Brett Cordes 14:24
phenomenal and I 

Rich Bennett 14:25
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 14:25
had to check and make sure it was the same stuff. Um, but it was definitely the same stuff. And that one decision to take that little cough medicine sample on that random Friday eventually led to a, you know, a six-year, gradually descending life of chaos and a full-blown addiction. 

Rich Bennett 14:46
Wow. So you were still practicing while in addiction then? 

Brett Cordes 14:51
Oh yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:53
Did- did anybody 

Brett Cordes 14:55
know? No. No- nobody knew for, uhm, let's say- let's say I was actively using for, let's say five and a half years, maybe six. Nobody knew for the first four. Uhm, and then my- then my wife started to suspect. 

Rich Bennett 15:11
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 15:12
But she was the only one. 

Rich Bennett 15:14
And- when did she finally say something to you? 

Brett Cordes 15:17
She finally said something to me in, uh, 2018, Okay. Not- yeah, not- About 2018, 2019, something like that. 

Rich Bennett 15:29
All right, 

Brett Cordes 15:30
uhm, but, you know, hopefully it's for most people making sleepy or groggy. 

Rich Bennett 15:36
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 15:36
For me it was- it gave me energy, uh, 

Rich Bennett 15:39
it- the 

Brett Cordes 15:40
it- 

Rich Bennett 15:40
opposite. 

Brett Cordes 15:40
It increased my motivation, it made me feel euphoric. I was- I was convinced that I was a better doctor, I was a better surgeon, I was a better father and spouse when I was high because everything was just felt perfect. Uhm, 

Rich Bennett 15:55
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 15:55
and I truly- I truly believe that, uhm, the amount of- the amount of mental gymnastics that I had to go through to justify 

using drugs while working as a physician and surgeon is tremendous. Uhm, but, you know, an addict does what they have to do. 

Rich Bennett 16:13
I never heard that term mental gymnastics. I liked that. I got 

Brett Cordes 16:17
Ha- 

Rich Bennett 16:17
to steal that phrase. Ha- Alright, so, what- what was the trigger in your brain that finally said, "A no- enough"? I need to stop. 

Brett Cordes 16:29
Okay, so that happened. I would say I- for the first time considered myself a drug addict, probably in 2017. Uhm, because up till then I had never tried to quit. I didn't see a reason to quit. You know, I really wasn't having any negative consequences. So why quit? It's- if- if it's a good thing. 

Rich Bennett 16:49
Mm-hmm. 

Brett Cordes 16:49
Uhm, but I decided to try to quit in 2017 to prove my- to myself that I could. Uhm, and I could not. I mean, 

Rich Bennett 16:58
Right. 

Brett Cordes 16:58
if anyone has any idea what, uh, opiate withdrawal feels like it is not a fun experience. And so, uhm, by the time it was 2017 I was having to use just to prevent the withdrawal symptoms. Uhm, 'cause I was physically dependent on it at this point. Uhm, so I couldn't quit though. I could wean myself down about 70% of the way, but I could never- I could never complete. And so- 

Rich Bennett 17:24
Right. 

Brett Cordes 17:25
Uhm, I knew I- I was a drug addict and I know I could not stop, certainly by the time 2018 rolled around. 

Rich Bennett 17:32
Holy cow. So how long before you finally went into the- into recovery. And- and actually was it a facility you went to or did you- especially being a doctor because, and we mentioned this, sometimes doctors don't ask for help, sometimes people don't ask for help in general. 

Brett Cordes 17:51
Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I definitely can't give myself any credit for, uh, for getting well. Uhm, because what happened in 2019, my partners found out about this and they called me into the office and they, uh, they fired me right off the bat. 

Rich Bennett 18:07
Oh, I- 

Brett Cordes 18:08
So this was in April of 2019. Uhm, and, uh, I didn't go to rehab until July of 2020. And that's- and it was mandated by the State Medical Board that I do three at a residential treatment 

Rich Bennett 18:23
facility. Three months. 

Brett Cordes 18:25
Okay. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 18:25
All right. So- and if you don't- if you don't want to answer this, that's fine. But that data you got fired, how did you explain that to your wife? 

Brett Cordes 18:36
Uhm, I told her that, well, I lied to her and told her that, you know, they suspected that I was taking opiates and I wasn't and that I'm sure we'd get cleared up. 

Rich Bennett 18:50
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 18:50
That's- that was what I first said. And then, you know, it didn't take long, you know, a week, maybe 10 days when I had to just tell her, look, this is what I've been doing. They found out I'm out of a job. 

Rich Bennett 19:04
Wow. 

Brett Cordes 19:04
It wasn't an easy conversation, that's for sure. 

Rich Bennett 19:06
Oh, no. And when you started going into recovery, or when you went- went to recovery the time, I'd take it, she stuck with this, she was behind you 100%. 

Brett Cordes 19:16
She was. Yes. She was 

Rich Bennett 19:17
Good. 

Brett Cordes 19:17
incredibly supportive. Yeah. And same with my family, that was a brutal phone call. I called my parents 

Rich Bennett 19:23
Oh. 

Brett Cordes 19:23
from the rehab facility to let them know what was going on. Uh, instead of that's kind of a parents nightmare, at least one 

Rich Bennett 19:31
worst 

Brett Cordes 19:31
of them. Uhm, but yeah, July of 2020, 23 September of 2020. And now, this was in the middle of COVID. 

Rich Bennett 19:38
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 19:38
If you'll remember. 

Rich Bennett 19:39
Yeah. I know. 

Brett Cordes 19:40
So you want to talk about isolation. You're isolated from society and then inside the rehab, you're isolated because of COVID. It was- it wasn't- it wasn't fun, but it was what I needed for sure. I had a great experience in rehab. 

Rich Bennett 19:54
Nah, did you go to rehab, ehm, where you were close to where you were living, or was it another state? Because I know sometimes people will go to a different state for rehab. 

Brett Cordes 20:05
Yeah, I went to another, well, I went to Louisiana, I was living in Texas at the time. Uh, yeah. And this was a rehab way up in the middle of a cow pasture in Northern Louisiana. 

Rich Bennett 20:16
Wow. 

Brett Cordes 20:17
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 20:17
Good therapy hanging out with the cows though you think about it. Hey, and I brought up the part about, you know, your spouse, and I'm glad you mentioned your parents because we talked to people when we cover you all the time, but we, you know, a lot of times we don't talk about how it affects the spouse and the family and actually how are your kids through all this? 

Brett Cordes 20:44
Yeah. Well, yeah, it is, I mean, it is absolutely brutal on the spouse. Um, and really, any, any, any loved one, it's, it's brutal because you, you see this person that you love, first of all, they change into a different person. Um, and they're making decisions that, that are completely out of character. It's, I would hate to have to, to watch a loved one go through that. 

Rich Bennett 21:09
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 21:10
my kids found out when everyone else found out. So they, they, you know, they had no idea at the time what was going on. Um, and let's see how we're old with it. When I found out, they're really like 14 and 12, I believe, um, 

Rich Bennett 21:24
Man, 

Brett Cordes 21:24
when this all blew up. So, 

Rich Bennett 21:27
All right. So you're in recovery. You're no longer a doctor. 

Brett Cordes 21:33
Well, 

Rich Bennett 21:33
What? 

Brett Cordes 21:34
I'm 

Rich Bennett 21:34
All 

Brett Cordes 21:35
in. 

Rich Bennett 21:35
right, let me rephrase that. You're not practicing, right? 

Brett Cordes 21:38
Correct, correct. 

Rich Bennett 21:38
Okay. So what was it that you say, you know what? I am going to start helping people. And that, that's when you decide to become the, the burnout doc. I love, I'm sorry. I just love that. The burnout doc. Sounds great, man. But when was it when you decided to start doing that? 

Brett Cordes 22:00
Uh, I, I just thought I did that in 2023. So, 

Rich Bennett 22:04
oh, wow. 

Brett Cordes 22:05
Um, but I went back to work first. 

Rich Bennett 22:07
Oh, 

Brett Cordes 22:08
my, my medical license was suspended in 2020. Um, and it was supposed to be suspended for one, one calendar year. But because of COVID, um, and because the medical board is not really efficient 

Rich Bennett 22:24
doing 

Brett Cordes 22:24
at 

Rich Bennett 22:24
right, 

Brett Cordes 22:25
that doing anything. Honestly, uh, it was two and a half years that my license was suspended. And by this time, I had moved to Louisiana. So I had to wait till my Texas license suspension was lifted. Then I had to ask for license in Louisiana and then go through the probation period. So I didn't go back to work until 2023. Um, and recovery is tough. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 22:49
Oh, yeah. 

Brett Cordes 22:50
Recovery is tough. But the, the lack of fulfillment and the isolation of being out of work for four years was, 

Rich Bennett 22:57
yeah, 

Brett Cordes 22:57
even worse for me. Um, it was, it was brutal. But yeah, I went back to work. Uh, it's time to one year contract in 2023. Um, I do earnaissance and throat. By the way, I mean, 

Rich Bennett 23:09
yeah, okay. 

Brett Cordes 23:10
Um, so I went back to work for a year in 2023 and, uh, it was, it was good. It wasn't great, though. You know, I, it was pretty obvious that I had kind of fallen out of love with clinical. 

Rich Bennett 23:23
Right. What you were doing. Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 23:25
Yeah. I mean, I love my patients. Still love the operating room. But, you know, in the four years that I was out, the amount of bureaucratic Yeah. Garb 

Rich Bennett 23:35
crap. 

Brett Cordes 23:35
garbage that doctors have to deal with seemed like it tripled like in four years. I was spending more time doing that stuff than seeing patients. So, um, and it was, it was frightening to kind of come to the realization that, man, I don't, I don't love, I don't love doctoring anymore. 

Rich Bennett 23:52
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 23:53
And I just happened to run into someone I did residency with in Houston. Um, I just happened to run into her online, and she was doing this. She's a life coach for surgeons. Um, and so we started going back and forth and talking and she was like, you know, Brett, you, with your experience and what you've been through, you'd be a great, you'd be a great life coach. Um, and then I just started thinking that, you know, who else better to serve than physicians who were burned out so that they don't crash and burn the way I did. 

Rich Bennett 24:26
Right. That I was gonna say and you don't have all the bureaucracy with it right now. Either do you. 

Brett Cordes 24:34
right. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 24:34
And 

Brett Cordes 24:35
There's no 

Rich Bennett 24:35
hopefully, 

Brett Cordes 24:35
insurance company 

Rich Bennett 24:36
will. Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 24:37
yeah, no interest companies. 

Rich Bennett 24:39
So, You're listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

Cancer is a serious public health concern that affects many people. It can be a difficult and frightening experience for those affected and their families and friends. I want to urge everyone to take steps to prevent and detect cancer early. There are many things you can do such as eating healthy, exercising regularly, getting regular checkups, and avoiding risk of behaviors. Let's work together to make sure that everyone is aware of the importance of public health and cancer prevention. The Hartford County Health Department offers new cause screenings for colorectal cancer, as well as breast and cervical cancer, through their partnership with University of Maryland, Upper Chesapeakel, for eligible individuals. Go to HartfordCountyHealth.com to find out more information. You started this, which I think is great because I think it's definitely something that's needed. And if you don't mind, because I really love hearing these, can you share a field good story about, and you don't have to mention your attorneys, of course, about somebody that you were able to help? 

Brett Cordes 26:02
Let's see. Well, I do have a field good story. Let's we'll do a field 

Rich Bennett 26:06
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 26:06
good story. So you know, I was treated at MD Anderson with a Simcell transplant for cancer back in 1996, 1997. And at the time, a Simcell transplant, when the Simcells came from the patient, it was an experimental protocol. So it was a big deal. There were 10 they were 10 patients in this protocol that were getting Simcell transplants and only two of us survived. So, you know, I grew up after that. I mean, I really, and I still kind of struggled with survivor skill, you know, what's so special about me that, that, you know, I was able to survive and all these other people, hmm. 

Rich Bennett 26:49
right? 

Brett Cordes 26:49
Make it. But so when I went to residency to train in Houston, I trained at MD Anderson for six months, doing head and neck surgery. So, you know, I was walking the halls of MD Anderson as a as a resident surgeon 

Rich Bennett 27:05
Mm 

Brett Cordes 27:05
in the same halls that I was as a patient, you know, 20 years prior to that. It was you want to talk about a surreal 

Rich Bennett 27:15
was. 

Brett Cordes 27:15
experience. That 

Rich Bennett 27:15
Yeah, I bet. 

Brett Cordes 27:17
And so, you know, we're head and neck surgeons in MD Anderson, but I'm still on ear nursing throat doctors. So we got consults within the hospital for nose leads a lot. So I went to see this patient, who had a nose bleed and I, and I, and I recognized his doctor's name because it was my doctor, and I'd been 

Rich Bennett 27:36
Oh! 

Brett Cordes 27:36
seeing this guy every three years. And so, his name was Dr. Roman Regara. And so, when I went to talk to Dr. Roman Regara, as a surgeon who had just helped his patients nose bleed. So I introduced myself, hey Dr. Roman Regara, my name is Brett Cordis. I'm one of the head and neck surgeons here. I just got through seeing Mr. Johnson and his nose bleed is is tidied up. And by the way, I want to thank you for saving my life. And, you know, he was writing something down at the time. And so he looked up at me. And I could tell he could recognize me, but he didn't, he didn't know my name, but he 

Rich Bennett 28:15
Right. 

Brett Cordes 28:16
could record, and he was trying to, you know, place it. And so we got up from his desk and just kind of walked over to his bookshelf. And on his bookshelf, he had framed a handwritten letter that my dad had written him 20 years. 

Rich Bennett 28:31
Oh, wow. 

Brett Cordes 28:33
Just thanking him for being a great doctor. And, you know, his bedside manner was fantastic. He was just the most wonderful. It was just incredible. And so he went and he picked up this framed letter that my dad had written them and said, you know, 

Rich Bennett 28:50
wow. 

Brett Cordes 28:51
It was just, there was not a dry eye in 

Rich Bennett 28:53
I 

Brett Cordes 28:53
the room. 

Rich Bennett 28:54
was just going to say, man, where was the clean next close 

Brett Cordes 28:57
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 28:57
by? 

Brett Cordes 28:58
Yeah. That was a pretty powerful, pretty powerful experience. But, 

Rich Bennett 29:03
wow. Yeah, I, yeah, I definitely would be. I'd probably ball him eyes out once I saw that. All right. Talking about physician burnout. 

Brett Cordes 29:14
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:15
Why is it such a massive, but often hidden issue, even nowadays? 

Brett Cordes 29:24
Yeah. Well, so as boring as it is, the main cause of burnout is all these, what I call, bureaucratic tasks. So you know, if I see a patient for earwax, for example, you know, take earwax using a microscope. That's a level two visit. It takes me 10 minutes, and then I'm seeing the next patient. But to do the paperwork involved and just seeing an earwax removal patient, it takes seven employees. 

Rich Bennett 29:57
What? 

Brett Cordes 29:58
Because you've got to check them in. You've got to take their vital signs. I've got to see them, then on the back end, you have to check them out, then the insurance people have to run their insurance, and then the collection people have to collect payment from the pays, it's just, it's on, you would not believe how much is involved in seeing a patient for something so straightforward. And um, eventually, a physician spends, you know, 60% of his day doing that stuff. 

Rich Bennett 30:28
Right. 

Brett Cordes 30:28
That's not why any of us went to medical school. And so that's the biggest cause of burnout. And then another cause which is, you know, closely tied to that is dealing with the insurance companies, and being told how to do your job by an insurance agent. 

Rich Bennett 30:48
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 30:49
That, you know, that I went, went to school and train for 'til I was 32 years old, now I can't do what I need to do without the permission of someone else. That, that's another separate cause of burnout. And so it's, it's rough. 

Rich Bennett 31:02
I, so since you've been in the field, and you're right, the bureaucracy is just, it's ridiculous. But have you, does it seem like you're seeing more and more doctors getting out of the business because of all that crap? 

Brett Cordes 31:19
Absolutely, yeah. And well, when COVID hit, um, the burnout rates went up, and 

Rich Bennett 31:26
yeah. 

Brett Cordes 31:26
Almost any doctor who was near retirement age and thinking about retired, they just went ahead and retired. But what's crazy is that the burnout rate for doctors has actually is higher now than it was during the height of COVID. 

Rich Bennett 31:41
Really? 

Brett Cordes 31:42
Which if you think about it is scary. I mean, 

Rich Bennett 31:45
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 31:46
you go see a doctor, there's a greater than a 50% chance that they're in full blown burnout. 

So it's, it's, it's not good. Like I said, it is a problem truly of epidemic proportions. 

Rich Bennett 31:59
Actually, how, how do you help the doctors who are afraid to admit that they need help, especially if they're afraid of losing their license or reputation? 

Brett Cordes 32:09
Yeah. So talk about roadblocks, um, to get help. First of all, the general public as a whole, nobody wants to hear doctors complaining. Right? 

Rich Bennett 32:20
Right. 

Brett Cordes 32:20
Because the perception is that doctors are rich and that, you know, we might work hard, but we're working in an office in the air conditioner and people just don't want to hear it 

Rich Bennett 32:30
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 32:31
complaints from from them. Because of the mis, misconception. So you feel bad about even bringing it up to lay people because of that. You, you can't bring it up within the medical community because it is a real feel, a rear fear that if the medical board finds out if they, you might have a mental health issue, you know, that could impact your license. Um, and so there's no where to go. And this is on top of the fact that doctors don't like to ask for help anyway. 

Rich Bennett 33:02
Right. 

Brett Cordes 33:02
Um, and so doctors will not go to a psychiatrist, um, for burnout or for mental health issues as they hold anyway. So there really is very, very few options for physicians who actively want to try to dig themselves out of the whole of burnout. 

Rich Bennett 33:23
All right. So with your business now, the burnout doc, um, especially says you see what doctors are going through, but at the same time, you're also in recovery. Are you only as the life coach part? Are you only helping other doctors? Are you helping basically all 

Brett Cordes 33:43
miss anybody? Yeah. So, um, my business model is to help other physicians. 

Rich Bennett 33:49
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 33:50
Um, but, uh, I, I will treat anyone in the medical field. Um, and I've had some, some potential, uh, options of treating other non medical professionals. They, basically anyone who has a job that has a state license and agency. 

Rich Bennett 34:09
So right. 

Brett Cordes 34:10
Engineers or architects or, you know, um, I have not treated them yet. So I'm, I'm really confined to the medical field and especially just other physicians because that's what I was. You know, people want to, 

Rich Bennett 34:22
right. 

Brett Cordes 34:23
Helps by someone who's walked in their shoes, so to speak. Um, and, you know, not everyone has a, has a substance abuse problem in burnout. Um, but almost everyone is addicted, and I put that in quotes to something. They have some sort of coping mechanism that they're, they're having to rely on that isn't healthy, you know, 

Rich Bennett 34:46
100%. All right, so you might have to think on this for a minute. 

Brett Cordes 34:50
All 

Rich Bennett 34:52
right. Looking back, what do you wish your younger self had known about boundaries, burnout or asking for help. 

Brett Cordes 35:02
Yeah. Well, that's easy. I would have listened to my partners because from day one, literally, on the very first day of work, they told me, "Maximizer 

vacations, take three day weekends, take time off, take at least one day off a week, maybe even a day and a half off a week." So, they would tell me that all the time so that I wouldn't get burned out. But I was having so much fun. 

Rich Bennett 35:31
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 35:31
And I love what I was doing and I love my patients. I did not feel burned out ever really. That boredom that I talked about previously, that was actually the first symptom of burnout. But I didn't know it at the time. And so, I would have listened to my partners and taken more vacation and also developed some hobbies and passions completely separate to medicine. That's what I would have done differently. 

Rich Bennett 35:57
You just mentioned that the boredom is a symptom... Yeah. Hello, Ren, Elipse here. A symptom of burnout. What other symptoms are there? Especially for doctors, but I think with burnout, a lot of people can recognize some things, but may not know the symptoms. What are some of the other symptoms? 

Brett Cordes 36:21
Yeah, well I tell people to think of a grumpy old-crotchity old 

Rich Bennett 36:27
old man 

Brett Cordes 36:27
man, 

Rich Bennett 36:27
syndrome. [Laughter] 

Brett Cordes 36:28
But basically, the biggest symptoms are irritability and people have a lower threshold for frustration. 

Rich Bennett 36:41
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 36:42
And then they start to get angry and depression and anxiety. And that starts to happen. But it's usually confined to work. When you go to work, you feel these things. But when those emotions follow your home, you're deep into burnout by the time that happens. And when your spouse and kids and family and friends begin to notice a change in your personality, you're deep into it. Because for doctors, it's more than just a profession. It's really part of our identity. 

Rich Bennett 37:14
Yeah. 

Brett Cordes 37:15
And so, it's not just a job to most physicians. 

Rich Bennett 37:18
Right. So, with you, you're helping doctors just where you're at or anywhere. Especially now, because of the internet. 

Brett Cordes 37:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah, my, uh, I have a website called the burnout.com. But it's everything's done over Zoom. So I can.. 

Rich Bennett 37:35
Okay. 

Brett Cordes 37:35
Anyone, anywhere in the world. 

Rich Bennett 37:38
And I'm glad you said that, because I know with certain things. Yeah, I think especially like therapy. I think you have to have a license? 

Brett Cordes 37:50
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 37:50
Or whatever in the states that you're doing it, even if you're doing it over Zoom or whatever. But with being 

Brett Cordes 37:55
absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 37:56
a life coach, I guess you're doing, right? 

Brett Cordes 37:58
You're correct. Yeah, there's, 

Rich Bennett 37:59
which is I think why a lot of people are going that way. 

Brett Cordes 38:02
And at this point in time, there's no governing agency over coaching. Now, there 

Rich Bennett 38:06
Yeah, 

Brett Cordes 38:07
are a couple of certification agencies. And I'm actually, I'm still, um, getting my certification. It's a long process. The one I'm doing is a, is about an 18 month process. So it's, but I wanted to do it the right way. 

Rich Bennett 38:22
right. 

Brett Cordes 38:22
And, um, I wanted people to have confidence, you know, my clients have confidence in my training. So, um, I will be certified probably by, um, certainly by 2026 and probably sometime in 2025. 

Rich Bennett 38:38
Well, and I'm sure there's probably even other certifications that will come out after that as well. 

Brett Cordes 38:43
Right. Yeah, it won't be long until the entire industry of life coaching is, you know, hopefully it won't be under the FDA or, 

Rich Bennett 38:50
right? I'm like 

Brett Cordes 38:51
that, but it'll be a little bit more organized. 

Rich Bennett 38:55
All right, so Brett, when's the book coming out, man? 

Brett Cordes 38:59
Well, it's funny. You mentioned that because I did write a book. I did write a memoir. 

Rich Bennett 39:03
What? 

Brett Cordes 39:04
About my cancer experience. Yeah. And that came out 

Rich Bennett 39:06
really. That 

Brett Cordes 39:07
came out in 2020. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:09
What are, is the book still available? 

Brett Cordes 39:12
It is. Yes. It's available on, uh, Amazon. 

Rich Bennett 39:16
What's the name of the book? 

Brett Cordes 39:18
Cancer is for older people. 

Rich Bennett 39:20
Oh, wow. 

Brett Cordes 39:23
yeah. And it talks 

Rich Bennett 39:24
That 

Brett Cordes 39:24
about my experience and how it made me become a doctor and a lot of other stuff too. It's, it's basically a memoir. 

Rich Bennett 39:33
I, well, I'm glad you said that because, uh, yeah, those of you listening, make sure you purchase this because I remember what I've always found, especially, you know, when you're reading something about somebody else has been through it, it helps a lot. 

Brett Cordes 39:49
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:49
I know when my mother had cancer, uh, the book that helped me get through it. And then in turn helped turn she went into remission was two Cs with more By Mitch all of them talking about more he Schwartz who had a less was a yeah, I think it was a less But when you read about somebody a true person That is sick and to see how they go through it and I guess you can see the life lessons Learned in it. It helps a lot. Yeah now granted was she went into ribb mission. She went back to smoking and you know, so God you 

Brett Cordes 40:28
know 

Rich Bennett 40:29
All right, so before before I get to my last Which is gonna be tricky for you 

Brett Cordes 40:35
question. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 40:37
Is there anything you would like to add? 

Brett Cordes 40:41
Well, I would just like to add, you know, I am not the only person That is available to treat burn out in doctors. There are other physician coaches right But I do think that coaching and they're actually studies that support this that that coaching helped With the symptoms of burnout, but I would I would consider Getting a coach to help you out of burnout if you're a doctor and you feel like that's that's an issue for you And so and we're all internet based so my my website is the burnout doc calm But there were other people Available to do the same not very many but 

Rich Bennett 41:22
right 

Brett Cordes 41:22
and hopefully there'll be much more in the in the future Because once doctors hopefully start asking for help and other physicians see How much they improve the entire business will get bigger and which will be a win-win because that means the less physicians are burned out and it it would be better for Doctors and patients and the general public 

Rich Bennett 41:46
Sandsley 

Brett Cordes 41:46
so 

Rich Bennett 41:47
the group of you should start your own networking group 

Brett Cordes 41:50
Yeah, maybe 

Rich Bennett 41:52
yeah, I mean think about it. There may be somebody that Another coach is helping but they just they can't get through But 

Brett Cordes 42:00
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 42:01
perhaps you could and vice versa 

Brett Cordes 42:03
Yeah, and my my resident partner You know, we have a very very loose association, but she's a woman And so sometimes female physicians prefer female coach and 

Rich Bennett 42:15
exactly exactly 

Brett Cordes 42:17
yeah 

Rich Bennett 42:17
All right, so this this last question. This is going to be based on a number you pick Okay, is this something that I started a little bit ago and it's 50 random questions I have no idea what the hell they are So pick a number between one and 50 

Brett Cordes 42:36
Okay, 20 

Rich Bennett 42:37
20 watch 20 

Brett Cordes 42:39
That's 

Rich Bennett 42:40
not the question by the way All right, okay. It's a going what's the this is actually a very good one for this? What's the most challenging idea you've ever had to grapple with? 

Brett Cordes 42:58
The most challenging idea that I have had to grapple with 

Okay, I think I have one 

Rich Bennett 43:12
Okay, 

Brett Cordes 43:13
it's the I it was the idea that 

I could not beat my addiction by myself and that I had to ask for help and receive help from another person in In order to do that 

Rich Bennett 43:29
Do you think that was the doctrine 

Brett Cordes 43:32
It could it could be and you know when you're an active addiction. You're not you're not really 

Rich Bennett 43:40
you? well, yeah 

Brett Cordes 43:40
You you think you know everything but It was it was it's not a much deeper 

You know, right Recovery is a lot of psychology and you really have to look within yourself and learn about yourself what why you do certain things. But You know when I was in my addiction my ego's through the roof. I thought you know I could quit if I wanted to I just don't want to But realize really realizing and acknowledging the fact that I'm gonna need help from another Human being to beat this that's going on inside me. That was a very hard Idea to wrap my brain 

Rich Bennett 44:21
around I think you need to follow up to that memoir Because you say you well your memoir was about you fighting cancer. 

Brett Cordes 44:28
Yep, yep 

Rich Bennett 44:29
But nothing about recovery. 

Brett Cordes 44:31
That's right. That's right 

Rich Bennett 44:33
See the sequel the sequel. 

Brett Cordes 44:36
There might be 

Rich Bennett 44:38
Well, Brett I want to thank you so much and thank you for everything you're doing and all the help you're providing again Those of you listening if you feel it doctors especially if you feel like that you need breath's help go to the burnout doc.com and Those of you listening also purchase his book Which is titled what again? 

Brett Cordes 45:03
something 

Rich Bennett 45:03
Cancer's 

Brett Cordes 45:03
Cancer is 

Rich Bennett 45:04
for 

Brett Cordes 45:04
older people people. 

Rich Bennett 45:05
Yeah, I 

Brett Cordes 45:06
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 45:06
just love that title man 

Brett Cordes 45:07
And I might just say, I had, I, I had two friends who were co-authors, so it follows the experience of, of myself when I was 19, and then, uh, one of my friends was a mother in her 30s, and another, in the third co-author was a father in his 40s, so it's really, it's got something for everybody. 

Rich Bennett 45:26
So it's basically, 

Brett Cordes 45:27
it's related to. Correct. 

Rich Bennett 45:30
Wow! 

Brett Cordes 45:30
And these are personal friends of mine, so it's, it's how we all kind of intertwine and connect and support each other, and, uh, we were all treated to MD Anderson with a simsel transplant. That's... 

Rich Bennett 45:42
Oh, wow. 

Brett Cordes 45:42
The commonality. So these, these were friends that I had prior to them getting sick. It wasn't... 

Rich Bennett 45:47
Right. 

Brett Cordes 45:47
They're not cancer friends, so to speak. Um, but yeah. So there, it was, it's, it's needed. There really is something in that book for anyone, whether it's a person going through cancer or, uh, loved one or a friend, because it's not fun to watch a loved one go through cancer or addiction. Both 

Rich Bennett 46:06
No. 

Brett Cordes 46:06
of them are very challenging. 

Rich Bennett 46:08
Well, I'll make sure, I'll find the, I'll find the book, and put a link to that and share news as well, and, especially after I purchased my copy. 

Brett Cordes 46:16
All right. 

Rich Bennett 46:17
So, Brett, thanks a lot, man. 

Brett Cordes 46:19
Okay, thank you. 

Rich Bennett 46:22
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love it if you can leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with rich Bennett dot com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care. Be kind and keep the conversations going. You know, it takes a lot to put a podcast together and my sponsors help out a lot, but I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing software, the hosting and so forth. There's a lot that goes into putting this together. So, I want to thank them and if you can please please visit their websites, visit their businesses, support them however you can. So, please visit the following Real-life real life prosthetics, cutting edge solutions, restoring ability since 2001 go to real life prosthetics dot com Full full circle boards. Nobody does charcuterie like full circle boards. Visit them at fullcircleboards dot com sincerely, so your photography, live in the moment. They'll capture it. Visit them at sincerely so your dot com.