Stuttering Is Not A Problem: A New Lens With James Burden

Wendy & Rich 0:00
Hey everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning 10 this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared an episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we've shared laughs, tears, tears, and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next 10 years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios, Harford County Living presents Conversations with Rich Bennett. 

No no, it's not. 

Rich Bennett 1:00
What if the very thing you struggled with most became the foundation for helping others find their voice? On today's episode of Conversations with Rich Bennett, I'm joined by James Burton, a man who's not just helping people speak more clearly, but more confidently. As a speech language pathologist and the founder of Stuttering Blueprint, James developed the unstoppable voice process, a groundbreaking approach that goes far beyond traditional speech therapy. Blending science with heart, James uses mindfulness, acceptance, and commitment therapy, and the campar-down method to help people who start a break free from fear and speak with purpose. If you've ever felt held back by your voice, or doubted the power of your story and everybody's got a story, this conversation will change the way you think about communication, confidence, and what it really means to be heard. Before I even get into it, I'm going to put a challenge out right now. All of you that do have Stuttering. I don't want anyone to say it's a problem. Any of you out there that do Stutter. After you listen to this, and especially if you have James help you out, 

I want to know if you decide to join toastmasters, because I have a funny feeling. I didn't even ask James this before we started, but I have a funny feeling. He's helped people that even have gone on to toastmasters or even doing TEDx talks or whatever, and he may not know, but I guarantee you you take this, you will. So first of all, James, how's it going, man? 

James Burden 2:48
Oh, that's fantastic. And thank you for such a wonderful introduction. And I love the fact that you corrected when you talked about Stuttering. Stuttering problem and then said it wasn't a problem because that is part 

Rich Bennett 3:00
That's 

James Burden 3:01
of 

Rich Bennett 3:01
all right. 

James Burden 3:01
the messaging. It certainly feels 

like one, and it's certainly the lived experience of people who Stutter certainly might disagree with it not being a problem. But I think that's why we're having a conversation. 

Rich Bennett 3:16
Here's people say Stuttering is a problem. People say that if you have a list, it's a problem. I don't, I disagree with both completely. I think some of your greatest people out there have Stuttered. The first person I think of all the time is the country singer, Mel Tilles. When he spoke, he stuttered like crazy. But when he's saying, oh my God, it was amazing. When it comes to the list, I think of, oh God, I'm probably going to get her name wrong. René Piquette, who does a lot of wrestling and interviews and everything. And she has a list. Some people don't notice it. I notice it. But I think it just makes it more interesting and better to listen to her. That's just me. But again, yeah, I don't think Stuttering is a problem. I think people need to embrace it and people can control it or get rid of it. And there's a comedian out there. You may know who I'm talking about. Young comedian, I think he was on America's Got Talent. 

James Burden 4:30
Oh, is this recent 

Rich Bennett 4:32
Drew? Drew Lynch? 

James Burden 4:35
Yeah. Oh yes, yes. I thought you were going to say Stuttering Joe, but I think that the Drew Lynch, okay. 

Rich Bennett 4:39
Yeah. Oh, well, I forgot all about him. Yeah. Drew Lynch because his and his whole comedy act was about that. But you listen to him now. He speaks a lot better. He must have talked to you or something because he's speaking a lot better. But anyways, I would I want to answer. I want to get right into this. What was the turning point in your own journey that major realized the traditional approach to Stuttering just wasn't enough? 

James Burden 5:09
Well, first I want to put it out there that I don't identify as a person who stutters. However, I do stutter and we all stutter sometimes. The difference between someone who usually identifies as someone who studies is a matter of 1%. If they're studying more than 1% of their syllables, those are the people that tend to come in for help. Those are the people who tend to be affected by a lot of the stigma, the negative thought patterns and all that kind of thing. And 

when you say I help people improve, I want to be very clear on my position when it comes to stuttering. 

Rich Bennett 5:56
Okay. 

James Burden 5:58
I don't consider less stuttering improvement and more stuttering in some way bad. What matters to me and what is the energy and the feeling that people have inside when they express themselves, whether they stutter or not? Because I have worked with people who I have helped them get their speech incredibly fluent. Like, you never know. But they didn't feel offended. And I've also met and worked with people who have learned to stutter openly and do so with such confidence 

that their presence is undeniable. And so it's not so much about the output as what's going on inside that matters. 

Rich Bennett 7:01
Okay. 

Yeah, because it's, and we were talking before we started and I was telling you about my buddy who stutters. But we have some of the best conversations. Yeah. And he does stutter a lot. Not, not as bad as who's the one you said stuttering Joe? 

James Burden 7:25
Yeah. I think he's, he's at a comedian from a while ago. 

Rich Bennett 7:29
Yeah. But I mean, he, like that, right? I mean, 

James Burden 7:33
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:33
Bad stutter. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's 

James Burden 7:36
so, but 

Rich Bennett 7:37
but 

James Burden 7:37
you 

Rich Bennett 7:37
he's not 

James Burden 7:37
ask, 

Rich Bennett 7:37
like that. 

James Burden 7:40
I didn't mean avoid 

Rich Bennett 7:40
Good. 

James Burden 7:41
the question earlier though. You asked me what the turning point was. Well, the turning point for me was a meeting with a client that I'd worked with 10 years ago. 

Rich Bennett 7:54
Okay. 

James Burden 7:55
And I, he was the example I just gave of someone I had helped speak incredibly smoothly. There was, uh, he did all of the work. He worked on his speech techniques. He got it very smooth. He left me confident. And when I talked to him 10 years later, and I hadn't worked with him or even really talked to him in the intervening time, he looked at me through the, 

Rich Bennett 8:21
hmm, 

James Burden 8:21
and he said, James, I don't know what happened. I just, I fell back into old habits. I started to avoid speaking situations. And the more I did that, it just kind of regressed back to the point where I'm kind of where we started. I don't feel confident in my voice. I think about my speech. I avoid words. I do all of the things that I didn't used to do. And what hit me about that is that he almost seemed to be apologizing to me. It had that kind of energy. And what was going on in my head was that I had failed him, not that he had failed me any way. And when I talked to him about what he didn't like about all way of doing things, 

he didn't like doing the practice. And what I kind of felt him saying, and I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth, is that even though he could be fluent, he didn't feel authentic. He was using a technique. now some of that technique does just work to reduce stuttering when you're not thinking about it, but in the intense experiences, in the job interviews, in the in the public speaking situations, that's when the pressure is on, that's when the thinking about speech comes in. And that's where those old techniques need old ways of avoidance that create and perpetuate the fear of speaking come back. And so that 

Rich Bennett 9:59
Okay, 

James Burden 9:59
hit me, and I was like, I cannot continue to just do cosmetic speech set therapy that just changes what it sounds like. I need to be able to help people deep down. So when on a deep dive into the research, I talked to an old friend who used to head. She was president of the BC Association of People Who Stutter and she has all kinds of experience and she talked to me about 

this concept called ableism. And in that concept, it's the idea that one way of speaking, one way of moving yourself around, whatever it is, is better than another. And I think when we When we look at someone in a wheelchair, some part of our mind might go to pity. But that person is whole. That person, they are living their life their way and there is no difference in terms of their humanity. So I don't think there's a right way of speaking on a wrong way, whether you list, whether you stutter, whether you have an accent, these are all we all have different ways to speak. So why is stuttering put on special pedestal where it's bad and different and must be treated as a flaw? If we instead look at it instead of as a flaw or a problem to be fixed, some kind of medical, I have something wrong with it, we need we have to fix it. If we can learn how to be okay, It not only reduces the stuttering that you see, but when they do happen, it doesn't throw people off. And they can 

Rich Bennett 11:56
right. 

James Burden 11:57
exist and express themselves, however they feel. 

Rich Bennett 12:02
Huh. Why do you suppose people do almost consider it like a disability? 

James Burden 12:17
I've thought about this a lot. And as a person who has grown up and doesn't identify as a person who stutters, there are two types of times that I notice myself stutter. One is just random and out of blue and it's just kind of like your mouth doesn't work the way you're expecting it to. And 

if it doesn't happen too often, you're just like, Oh, I was weird and you move on with your life. 

Rich Bennett 12:46
Right. 

James Burden 12:49
But if it happens a lot, we start to watch out for it. We start to tense up for it. And as we are thinking about it, it happens more. The other reason I think that people think of it as a disability or an issue is that when a person who doesn't generally stutter very often does stutter, it's either just a random thing like I explained or it's when they're nervous. 

Rich Bennett 13:20
Right. 

James Burden 13:21
Because anytime we do anything when we're really nervous or really worked up, we don't do it as well. We, you know, we don't process language as well. We don't form our words as well. We don't do anything that takes the skill as well if we're under those conditions. So as people who don't stutter, we go out and we experience being nervous and stuttering. So we assume that when somebody else stutters, they must be nervous or there must be something wrong. And this assumption leads us to treat them a certain way, you know, maybe a pitting, trying to help them out with like finishing their sentences, which people who stutter do not like. Because it, again, makes them feel like there's something wrong with them, which there isn't in a little bit of patience. We'll just let that out. But this experience that neurotypical people have of only stuttering when they're nervous and then ascribing nervousness to somebody else basically 

makes that somewhat come true. Then the person who stutters is like, "Oh, I stutter, people are going to think I'm nervous, so no, I'm nervous. I don't want to stutter nervous. I don't, you know, it gets into this cycle. So awareness is a big part of this as well. Like cultural awareness that stuttering is incredibly important." 

Rich Bennett 14:48
With the stuff you do, 

and for those listening, and even myself, because I don't know what they are, can you explain what act acceptance and commitment therapy is, as well as the camper down method? 

James Burden 15:06
Absolutely. Let's start with camper down, because that's what I think people, when they think of speech therapy, they think of working on speech. And camper down is a method to do that. It involves slowing down the speech pattern and then speeding it back up and controlling for naturalness. And then you end up speaking, you know, so I'm exaggerating now so that you can hear it, but it's a very flowy, connected kind of way of speaking. But if I speed it up a little bit, it sounds pretty much like any kind of normal typical speech. So that will, for a time, and if you're consistent with practice, it can keep the stuttering more minimal through using a technique. So I use that if someone comes to me and they can't really focus on anything else yet, they're in crisis. They need to just feel the sense of control, and I can give that to them. However, any speech technique, even one as well researched in science fact, as the camper down method, if it doesn't deal with what's underneath the stuttering iceberg. ...and I'll explain that in a second. If it doesn't deal with the underneath problem, the-the feeling of... being.. of-of-of worrying about the speech, the feeling that I'm not correct if I don't speak a certain way, then eventually, if you try to hold on to that, I call it "white knuckle fluency". It's like you're just forcing it, but you still don't feel it underneath. And eventually, people burn out from trying to keep that up. And this is where ACT comes in. So ACT is an off-off shoot of, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy. It came out a little bit later. And this is a bit of an oversimplification, but in cognitive behavioral therapy, one finds the negative thoughts and changes them. In ACT, those negative thoughts, those self-judgmental thoughts, we learn to realize that they are thoughts, and they only have as much power as we invest in them. If we learn how to let them go, as opposed to necessarily changing them, just witnessing them and letting them go, we can begin to detach from all of the body's reaction to these thoughts and emotions, so that the body doesn't react to the emotion, because we've let it go. The body doesn't react to the thought, because we've let it go. And then in itself, it can reduce the chances of stuttering. And if it doesn't, then when a stutter comes out, it's just like, "Oh, yeah, there's one, and keep going." So this is, of course, a practice. And it involves being able to see thoughts as separate from us. And this is a very much part of spirituality, and this is where I think I am well placed to help, because of the experiences that I've had with my life, somewhat collapsing on me three years ago, and then going through a bit of a journey to realize that I'm okay. No, I don't stutter, but I've had a lot of very human experiences of not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy, and if we don't address those, sit with those, and 

integrate 

Rich Bennett 19:02
them, 

James Burden 19:02
then they will continue to run our lives through the unconscious. 

Rich Bennett 19:10
So with the stuff that you do, whether it be the actor, the camper, down, 

do you include, like, meditation, teach your, I want to say, I don't know, clients or family or whatever, how to meditate as well, because I would think that would help as well. 

James Burden 19:32
I definitely, I include guided meditations in my practice, 

Rich Bennett 19:38
and 

James Burden 19:40
I would never, ever, tell anyone not to. I think it's a beautiful practice. I've done "What happened." Vipassana, which is like a ten-day guided meditation or treat silent, not guided, sorry silent. And I have a personal practice of, you know, it varies, especially when I'm traveling like I am, but I try to do a morning session and an evening session, and I would encourage anyone to do that. Is it required, in order to-- right. Do what I'm doing to help 

Rich Bennett 20:19
Right, 

James Burden 20:19
you with your speech. It's not, you definitely don't have to do, like, a two-hour-a-day practice or anything. I think it's very useful, and if people want to use it as one of the many tools that we have, I highly encourage it, but it's not, like, 100% necessary that you now become like, you don't have to go and do a ten-day silent meditation or treat. You 

Rich Bennett 20:40
right, 

James Burden 20:40
can looted it into your day. So that is part of it. I think getting in touch with the part of yourself that isn't affected by other people's opinions, 

your own thoughts, is incredibly powerful. 

Rich Bennett 21:03
Oh, yeah. Well, one of the things I noticed with meditation-- that's how I ask that question, because you do learn more about yourself, I believe, and I think that can actually help. It helps with a lot of things. I mean, anxiety, depression, your physical health. So that's how I ask that question, because I would think with speech, it could help with that as well, because you just get in that relaxed state. And you mention before how a lot of people when they get nervous, that's when a lot of that stuttering comes. But if you're relaxed before you do it, I would just-- You mentioned something else. You said, I believe it was stuttering iceberg. 

James Burden 21:53
Yes, yes. Okay, so, may I, uh, 

Rich Bennett 21:57
uh, 

James Burden 21:57
uh, 

Rich Bennett 21:57
yes, yeah, definitely. 

James Burden 21:58
... was, uh, first coined by Joseph Schien. He is, uh, was a, a person who stuttered himself and- 

Rich Bennett 22:09
Okay. 

James Burden 22:10
With someone, uh, a speech therapist, that worked in stuttering. And he talked about the stuttering iceberg as this. 

On an iceberg, you've got the tip of the iceberg, which is a very small part that you can see on top. And then underneath, there's a massive, much, much bigger chunk of ice that, uh, is- that is floating. If we look at stuttering in the same lens, the tip of the iceberg is what you see. It's the stuttering. It might be avoidance behaviors. It might be, uh, any kind of physical symptom that you see. It's not a symptom because it's not a disease. But, uh, any, any physical or audible stutter that you see is the tip of the iceberg. And underneath that is the thoughts, the feelings, almost always negative. Uh, if they weren't negative, they- they're not really a problem. Um, but there's a lot of negative feelings and a lot of cultural, learned, conditioning that tells us we are not good enough if we don't speak with those stuttering. There's a lot of that. And people come by very honestly. Like sometimes it's the bullying and the teasing. Sometimes it's a well-meaning parent who is trying so hard to help their kid not stutter that reinforces the idea that they need to not stutter in order to be good enough. Now, this is not because the parents are mean, they're actually trying to help, but 

Rich Bennett 23:50
um, 

James Burden 23:50
it perpetuates this idea of stuttering as a flaw of stuttering as a, as a lack and not being good enough. So, if we only work on the tip of the iceberg, we work on the speech, we work on getting you to sound a certain way, you'll- you'll see progress, right? That, that, that top of the iceberg will get chipped away. But then over time, the rest of iceberg, the, the, the buoyancy of all of that feeling and, and, and negative thought that just rises up and you have a new tip. And you're, it's just like with that client that I went away and came back 10 years later, his, we worked on the surface, we got it nice and flat and then it just floated on back up. And so the only way to deal with that, hard, cold, tight chunk of ice is to take the whole thing to warmer water and melt it from the bottom. And a supportive environment, a good therapist, whether it's me or somebody else, and in, in many cases, meeting other people who stutter helps to melt that iceberg, but provides that warm environment, allows the hard, like tight chunk of ice to just release and be like go. And that's how we lower that, that's how we really work with people to start it in, in, in the modern way. 

Rich Bennett 25:22
Alright, so these people we work with, do you work with a lot of professional speakers or, and I mentioned this in the beginning with like the TEDx talks and toast masters. People, have you worked with people that ended up becoming speakers? 

James Burden 25:41
I have, I've worked with people and I keep confidentiality still because it's 

Rich Bennett 25:48
not everyone 

James Burden 25:49
wants to self that evolve and I think that's their business. 

Rich Bennett 25:52
Right, right. 

James Burden 25:54
But I've definitely worked with people who've gone on to apply for the job that they didn't think they could ever apply for, to speak at the wedding ceremony that they didn't think they would ever speak at. Not just, not just in their work life, but it transfers to the rest of their like, indeed like, there's even people who have felt able to talk to somebody that they had a crush on and begin a relationship. These are the kinds of stories that I get to hear, and this is what draws me to this work. The cutting off someone's communication especially for a reason that is societally driven and based on so much myth and falsehood just seems like such a shame to, to, 

Rich Bennett 26:48
to... 

James Burden 26:49
people get violenceed by this. And this is why it was so meaningful to me and this is what drew me to this even before I was finished grad school. I started, I've been doing this for 17 years and before I started grads, before I was completed grad school, I got to work with 10 people who study and I got to see this wonderful journey from stuttering to fluency. But again, this was many years ago and we weren't 

Rich Bennett 27:16
Right. 

James Burden 27:17
doing all work. So I don't, uh, I don't know how well those people have done is just before Facebook, I'm not, this is not even in my practice. I don't even have these people's. 

Rich Bennett 27:28
Yeah. 

I never even thought about that, but you mentioned like you helped somebody that when it needed to speak at a wedding, and to me speaking at a wedding is probably, I would think more important than even doing a TEDx talk or speaking at a business thing because that's something that people will remember people close to you will remember. I mean, look at many people who speak of businesses and. could be months later. Like, who was that that was speaking unless you're zig-zagglers, well, he ain't going to speak anywhere anymore, but you know what I mean? I mean, just that, I would have never thought about that somebody coming to you is like, look, I have my daughters wedding coming up, I need your help, because I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm afraid to talk, I'm afraid to speak in front of everybody. I never thought about that. That's so you help people around the world, no matter where they're at, right? 

James Burden 28:44
Yeah, well, this is the, the beauty of what's happened 

Rich Bennett 28:49
since. The internet. 

James Burden 28:51
Yeah, I mean, being able to connect with people in a way that's private, you know, people don't, especially at the 

Rich Bennett 29:00
Yeah. 

James Burden 29:00
beginning of the journey, but whether they're ready to, when they're still exploring, whether they want to own it, whether they want to use speech techniques, because both are fine. Whatever choice people make is I accept. And I think it's beautiful as long as the, I mean, as they want to push themselves out of their comfort zone and going straight to the wedding speech might be a big jump. And we can 

Rich Bennett 29:27
do that. Right, yeah. 

James Burden 29:29
Right. But being able to help people do this, and it when, when they do face those fears, and something like the wedding speech is such a catalyst for chain, and I'm also lucky to be a part of a something called the Stuttering Angel Fund. And what it does is, 

Rich Bennett 29:53
huh? 

James Burden 29:54
Does magic in the world of stuttering in a world that starts and it's there to provide those little bits of funding that help people get opportunities to do things that push their boundaries to make that catalytic change. You know, an example might be sending a message like sometimes I mostly work with adults, but I have worked with kids and sometimes getting their favorite star to send them a little note. 

Or providing funding so that they can go to an event where they're gonna speak for the first time, or doesn't have to be anything as grand as that. But that's what the Stuttering Angel Fund is for is just to provide that little bit of money to help people find those catalyst moments that make them know they're okay and, and, and move forward. 

Rich Bennett 30:55
Now, is that a nonprofit? 

James Burden 30:58
That is just a pile of money. It is just a little pile of money, and it is provided by past clients and, 

Rich Bennett 31:07
okay. 

James Burden 31:07
We haven't gone to all of the, there's a lot of organization that goes into running a nonprofit, all that kind of thing. I'm 

Rich Bennett 31:17
all the 

James Burden 31:17
just staying focused. If people don't feel comfortable giving, I'm not really here to like try and get more funds 

Rich Bennett 31:25
it. 

James Burden 31:25
in 

Rich Bennett 31:25
Right. 

James Burden 31:26
The fact that it exists, and if there's someone out there. 

Rich Bennett 31:29
That's great though. 

James Burden 31:31
Meeting that little bit of funding to do something special around the stuttering I'd love to hear from you. And, you know, it's, it's not this big thing. It's just past clients. If anyone wants to contribute, we take it by the, we're not really out there, like promoting it 

Rich Bennett 31:47
That's 

James Burden 31:47
in. 

Rich Bennett 31:47
great 

James Burden 31:47
Together. 

Rich Bennett 31:47
though. That's great. So James, one of the things that I love to hear are feel good stories. So if out using any names, can you share a story of a client who's transformation, actually still sticks with you today. And what made it so powerful? 

James Burden 32:10
Wow. Okay. You know what? Because it's happening right now I've got one really fresh in my mind. So 

Rich Bennett 32:17
Okay. 

James Burden 32:17
she. Being with me for. I guess we're rounding out our second month and we've been doing quite intensive, and when she started, we were working on speech. She needed to feel in control. And she did, she was 

Rich Bennett 32:34
in, uhm... 

James Burden 32:35
On it. She did the homework. It wasn't not onerous, just like 20 minutes a day, but she stuck to it. And, and she, she managed to get her speaking to a level where she's feeling very confident. And the really fun part is that now, that was the first three weeks to a month, and now we've been together, and we haven't even talked about the speech technique for the last few sessions. It's all been about melting that iceberg. It's all been about questioning the beliefs, the underlying, uh, miss, the stigma. And, we get to get into it, and, and she has, I've got to be so careful not to reveal identifying information, but she went out and asked to be put in a position on her sports team. That was very, very central to the whole team. And, she went out there, she asked for it, she got it, and she's doing it, and she's killing it. Does that involve a ton of speech? No. But, she's moved up because she asked. She didn't have the 

Rich Bennett 33:48
You 

James Burden 33:48
confidence. 

Rich Bennett 33:48
gave her the courage. Yeah. 

James Burden 33:51
I didn't give it to her. I was there, to help her see it, 

Rich Bennett 33:56
To 

James Burden 33:57
and-- 

Rich Bennett 33:57
help her find it. Yeah. 

James Burden 34:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 34:00
Oh, that's awesome. 

James Burden 34:03
So, I mean, 

Rich Bennett 34:04
The 

James Burden 34:04
just 

Rich Bennett 34:04
book-- 

James Burden 34:04
that-- But, you know, I think it's time to write a book. I had a book writing experience recently. I wrote a book. I was flailing around a bit a couple of years ago. Didn't know what to do with myself. And I wrote a book on ADHD. But then I realized I should have wrote it on stuttering, but you know what? If I had, it wouldn't be as good as if I wrote one now, because so much has changed in the last few years about the way we approached stuttering the difference that you can make with this new way. It needed to be written into the book, and I would have missed a lot of them. Also, the importance of, for me, as a therapist, coming about it has happened over the last couple of years, and a lot of it, I think, is to do with the meditation practice, 

looking into myself, and realizing that I had been trying to create something to prove something, to prove that I was like, 

Rich Bennett 35:15
the 

James Burden 35:16
"I'm a good therapist, and I got this big business, and I'm helping all these people, and this was coming from a place of proving. And since I've been able to let that go, my therapies have improved, my results have improved, because it's not about me, it's not about a business, it's just about connection. 

Rich Bennett 35:37
Yeah. 

James Burden 35:38
One person at a time doesn't matter, two people, if groups form, great, but what matters is that each individual is making progress. 

Rich Bennett 35:51
And here, listen to the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

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James Burden 37:28
know 

Rich Bennett 37:28
Did you 

James Burden 37:28
that? There are. There 

Rich Bennett 37:30
Okay. 

James Burden 37:30
are absolutely... There are a few of them out there. And... 

Rich Bennett 37:33
Okay. 

James Burden 37:34
I think that they are brilliant. I mean, it's so great. Any time you're getting people who's stuttered together, that's a good step in the right direction. So I'm not criticizing it in any way. I do see because I'm a member of some of them. Okay. And as a therapist, in a person who doesn't stutter, I have to be very careful. This is not a place to go and try and find clients, right? 

Rich Bennett 37:59
right. 

James Burden 37:59
So I interact and it's also not a place to say this is the right way to deal with stuttering and this is the wrong way. So I kind of have to keep my mouth epic because that's the rules of these Facebook groups, but I see a lot of misinformation. 

Rich Bennett 38:16
Yeah. 

James Burden 38:16
They're still about and a lot of people still searching in vain for a cure to something that's not a disease. And a lot of people reinforcing through their own lived experience is it can be incredibly tough as a person who stutters. And there's a lot of trauma out there. And I do see that sometimes these support groups, even as they provide a wonderful place for camaraderie and solidarity, they also sometimes reinforce some of the negativity around stuttering that people have internalized. So I have great respect for it. So just if you're going to go out, I'm going to speak to your audience for a second. 

Rich Bennett 39:02
Sure. 

James Burden 39:02
You're going to go out and join one of these groups. Please, by all means, do so. But consume carefully. Don't necessarily take someone's opinion as fact. And you're going to get a lot of opinions. And I'm not saying I'm right and everybody else is wrong, but you're going to get a lot of differing opinions. So it's important to check your facts, use chat GPT, like do some research because if you reinforce some of these negative beliefs in yourself, it can actually make things harder. 

Rich Bennett 39:40
Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned something there. You it's not a disease. And I'm glad you 

James Burden 39:46
know, 

Rich Bennett 39:48
however, can you tell us what are some of the biggest when it comes to starting so the biggest misconceptions and myths that people have? 

James Burden 40:00
Well, the big one is the nervousness one. So you know, we talked about a little bit earlier. Assuming someone who 

Rich Bennett 40:06
Right. 

James Burden 40:06
studies 

people think that people who study are less intelligent, this is also a big, this is completely unproven. In fact, if anything, there was a study that showed people who study were more intelligent. It didn't get, 

Rich Bennett 40:25
right? 

James Burden 40:25
It like by a standard deviation, which is like about 12-13% it was. It didn't get replicated. I wouldn't go around saying that people who study are smarter, but necessarily, but there does seem to be, if it's going in any direction, it's going towards more intelligent, not less. So that is a big myth that needs to be understood. The idea that something is wrong with you in the first place. We look at it through a medical model. We still look at it for the most part, I think the world still looks at it as, oh, there is a problem and what's the solution and make the outside appearance of stuttering go away and everything will be fixed. This is a completely backwards model. It is, you know, I'm sure I think that there are some, not an expert on medication for this kind of thing. There are some that might help, but 

Rich Bennett 41:25
I'm 

James Burden 41:25
if you don't really inner work, it won't be gone. And it will never be, it's not something that we try to cure, although many people do move past it, by which I mean that they don't really have to think about it very much anymore, and it doesn't really affect their lives very much anymore. That can happen, but it doesn't mean that it's gone completely. It's still a part of them, but they've learned to it go. Those are the people that I see having the most success. 

Rich Bennett 42:05
I got a really deep question for you. This may require a little bit of thinking. You ready for this? 

James Burden 42:13
I'm ready. 

Rich Bennett 42:16
If you could change the way that world sees stuttering with just one message, just one, what would that message be? 

James Burden 42:30
I want people to look at stuttering with the same kind of benign attitude that they look at left-handedness. 

And we remember, it's not that long ago, our grandparents, even our, and maybe even some parents still remember that if you were in school and you used your left hand, you were taught that you had to write with your right, some of the reason even barbaric practices where they were like tied a left hand down and, and, and all this kind of thing. And that was not that long ago. And now we look at people who are left handed and we think absolutely nothing of it, nothing, just a thing, who cares? And this is the same way I would love for people to be stuttering. It's just some, some people do this, it's nothing. And when you know that on the inside, many people ask me like, how do I interact with someone who stutters? You know, I don't want, you know, I know not to finish the sentences, but like, should I say something? But if you know inside that is just nothing, it's no more bigger deal than being left handed, then you don't have to worry about how do I act in front, how do you act in front of a left handed person? No different than your act 

Rich Bennett 43:55
Right. 

James Burden 43:55
in front of anybody else, right? This is, this is where I would love to see the world go. 

Rich Bennett 44:04
I mean, if you're talking to somebody, somebody that's stuttering, just, I mean, I get, accept it and just take your, so yeah, sometimes you may have to take your time and listen, but let them finish what they're saying and enjoy the conversation. Because I'm sure this helps too, or you may see it, if you make that person feel more comfortable when you're enjoying that conversation, grab me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you see that stuttering slowly dwindle during that conversation? 

James Burden 44:42
For the most part, my, my client that I was just talking to you about, the one that I'm working with now, and she's making all this progress. We have entire conversations like for an hour, where I don't hear a 

Rich Bennett 44:59
Yeah. 

James Burden 44:59
single stutter, and I'm aware that she hasn't thought about it the whole time. Now, I must admit, 

Rich Bennett 45:05
Keep our, it doesn't even 

James Burden 45:06
talking to her. 

Rich Bennett 45:07
realize it, does she? 

James Burden 45:08
No, she's not even thinking about it. Now, also, 

Rich Bennett 45:11
yeah. 

James Burden 45:11
A bit of a therapist's effect. She's very, very, very comfortable with me. We've known each 

Rich Bennett 45:16
Right. 

James Burden 45:16
other for a while, and this is our subject. So talking about it doesn't bring up things. It, it might be partially because she's very, very comfortable with me, but this is what I like to see. In fact, I have, it might this might not be the appropriate form, but I have an embodiment exercise that sometimes I run through on podcasts. This sort of helps peak 

Rich Bennett 45:43
what? 

James Burden 45:47
Helps people who stutter, sort of look at this in a slightly different way, and I can, I can do that now or I can leave it as a resource for people to get on my 

Rich Bennett 45:56
is. 

James Burden 45:56
website, which 

Rich Bennett 45:56
Oh no, go ahead. Go 

James Burden 45:59
All 

Rich Bennett 45:59
ahead. 

James Burden 45:59
right. Okay. It takes a few minutes, but I think it's, it's a good one. It's 

okay. Are you ready? 

So this is an exercise that I developed with a coach that I worked with myself for the love, her name is Elisidicaro, and she does the ground court confidence approach. So, what I want you to do, if you, if you're not driving or doing anything like that, if you're listening, you can stop the car or just stop for a minute, take a comfortable position, and begin by closing your eyes. 

Now, imagine in your mind's eye your two open hands. Imagine in one hand the time in your life where you are so focused or determined or just so present that you were getting your message across. You were talking to someone expressing yourself and you didn't care that stuttering was happening. Maybe you were angry or you were emotional or something was happening or you were just so determined to get your message across to this person that stuttering was happening and you didn't even care. So remember that and hold that in one hand. And now on the other hand, imagine another time in your life where you were also present or determined or focused or motivated and you were getting your message across. And this time you were expressing yourself with total fluency. 

Either you didn't stutter at all or you stuttered way less and it just felt so powerful that you were so available to just speak more fluently and hold that in the second 

hand. Now, feel both hands. And imagine just for a moment, just for an experiment, a thought experiment. Imagine for a moment that you do not value one hand over the other, one experience over the other. They're both equal and valid experiences, both equal and valid methods of expression. And as you consider holding these both as equal, 

notice how you feel, 

notice what resistance might come up. Maybe it's a sense of liberation, maybe it's a sense of possibility. Like you've never imagined what it could be like not to judge one is better than the other. 

So take a moment to feel both of them 

and imagine that they are each valid ways of being in the world and they'll put your hands together and connect to your own body. 

Feel them touching each other, these two possibilities. Feel them learning from each other, feel them informing each other. And then imagine, but on the inside of you, it doesn't matter which way you express yourself. 

What matters more is the way you feel about the expression, the way you feel about how you're showing up in the world. 

And that you can actually have more choice about how you feel about your speech. 

And maybe you're going to keep training and you're going to focus energy like a martial artist or a performing artist who's going to train to get better and master a skill. And if you want to master the skill of fluency, then go for it. 

But what's most important is that you find what is comfortable for you, and that you're not relying on one of these two outward expressions to validate how you feel about yourself as a person. 

Rich Bennett 50:49
Wow. Yeah, well, that's, that's a good exercise for almost anything. 

James Burden 50:58
Right. 

Rich Bennett 50:59
Yeah, I was doing it. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking of because before I was doing this for I got into radio, I was very shy. I didn't like talking in front of people. And there's still times I'll clam or all and I just did that and it's like, 

I've never had this. It's always like a sense of relief coming from my gut. 

James Burden 51:23
Nice. Excellent. So your embody is this is what I, one of the things I learned from a list of my coach, my speaking coach, because I, you know, when I, before I started doing these podcasts, I decided to like brush up on my public speaking and she helped me a great deal in this grounding exercise or one similar to this one is what I do before each podcast. And it just helps me feel grounded. And I love the fact that you said you felt it in your stomach because feeling, 

Rich Bennett 51:51
yeah, 

James Burden 51:52
your body sensations and being aware of body sensations is a huge part of staying grounded and feeling confident in the way we speak. And the list is being great help to me and, and this is the kind of thing that once people have come to terms with their stutter, on the inside, 

Rich Bennett 52:15
hmm, 

James Burden 52:16
Read a try all of these things that they might have held themselves back from. I think you mentioned someone you knew that was not sure if they wanted to do a podcast. Because of speaking 

Rich Bennett 52:28
right? 

James Burden 52:28
and the speaking piece and these with practice, these kinds of exercises are how we can come to these things and express our authentic selves. 

Rich Bennett 52:44
Yeah, thank you for sharing that because now this is a new exercise that I'm going to add to my routine. Because you know, it's weird. You know, in podcasts is one thing public speaking to me is still kind of hard. Even though I'm in like different boards, I'm present of the lines club and all that and I do have to get up and speak sometimes. I am seeing a lot of events, but this oh yeah. That's, that'll that's all good. 

James Burden 53:18
I'm so glad you enjoyed those those types of things that that can really make a difference. 

Rich Bennett 53:26
You know what? Speaking of feeling good, I got to ask you this. You mentioned that 10 day retreat, 

James Burden 53:33
hmm. 

Rich Bennett 53:33
Dating retreat. How did you find out about that? And how was it? Where was that? I just love meditating. I helped with my anxiety and depression big time and weight loss as well. 

James Burden 53:47
It seems to be some kind of a cure all. I honestly think that something like the past, so it could definitely help someone who starts or anyone really 

Rich Bennett 53:59
right. 

James Burden 53:59
How I discovered it is I had When I first started this whole thing, I moved to Mexico just for a little 

Rich Bennett 54:08
okay. 

James Burden 54:08
vacation to get away from work on everything. And I met my friend Matt and he has been a huge influence on my life. I started meditating with him, it went from like a once in a while practice to like a pretty steady practice and He many years ago started this thing called karma flights in Nepal and he said you should go to Nepal Volunteer with karma flights and go do the Pasuna and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do it So what the Pasuna is is it's a method that was Taken down for many centuries, and they say it was the one of the original teachings of the Buddha of Siddhartha the original Buddha the one that everyone talks about And it was kept by monks in Myanmar for centuries and then it was reintroduced back to India where it came from by a man named goenka and what it's about is You sit in silence and receive very little instruction except for where to place your attention and you do this for 10 days and Let me tell you what I first signed up. I thought how am I gonna do this? This this is impossible. There's no way I'm gonna be able to handle this and then I got in there And I was nervous to be there and you agree to stay for the 10 days It's not they they don't stop you from leaving but they'll try and talk you out of it because it's like leaving 

Rich Bennett 55:39
right 

James Burden 55:40
through an operative you're doing like a spiritual operation basically and you're releasing a lot of Negativity that you've been carrying for many years 

Rich Bennett 55:51
the rate of a 

James Burden 55:51
time and 

Rich Bennett 55:51
lot of 

James Burden 55:53
exactly and 

I felt after the day one day three and day five are really tough I was thinking I don't want it. I don't can't do this anymore and then I got into this place after about day five the last five days were really I I loved it I just almost didn't want to leave after the ten days. I felt so clear so calm so grounded and 

Rich Bennett 56:20
Wow 

James Burden 56:20
That has influenced me hugely. I'm gonna be going back again in October I'm gonna do this on a yearly basis now so ten days a year to take out to Just concentrate on this again. This is not something that's required by my programmer in any way, but It is a very moving experience for me, and I've gone on to continue that in my travels through Nepal and India Mexico and now I'm in Peru and Seeking out different spiritual teachers and 

Rich Bennett 56:53
Getting 

James Burden 56:54
into it really doing the work and I think maybe it's something to do with my age and having had my life Crumble around me before this is like I I have a This it almost feels like 11 another life now, but I went through a divorce three years ago I got a brain tumor. I had to go to hospital and have it removed and Once I heal they set off on this journey through all of these countries 

Sometimes it seems almost a little cheesy You know that going on the eat prey love to her kind of a thing but Despite it's cliche it it was an incredible experience and he is still an incredible experience 

Rich Bennett 57:39
I guarantee you you probably feel a lot better and you probably feel younger as well, don't you? 

James Burden 57:45
Oh, yeah younger healthier 

Clear and more and most importantly, I feel like I have to let go a lot of Proving let go of a lot of self-criticism let go of a lot of Yeah Just general negative thoughts about myself that weren't serving me in any way and 

Rich Bennett 58:07
That's good 

James Burden 58:08
While my program is not built entirely on that it is heavily influenced by it and That has been developing over time and I think this Allows me now to get into the more deep parts of the iceberg That before weren't available to me. I didn't really know how to address them and now I feel very confident to be able to do that 

Rich Bennett 58:36
Have you actually thought a best start your own podcast? About all this? 

James Burden 58:41
Yeah, actually I would love to start my own podcast I Right now I'm concentrating on being a guest and I would 

Rich Bennett 58:50
if 

James Burden 58:50
love 

Rich Bennett 58:50
Right 

James Burden 58:51
any other factors listening that want to help me spread the word I very much appreciate that So I'm concentrating on being a guest until I reach a certain point and then I would very much like to start a podcast in fact I've already got a name for it Which I've reserved on sub-stack which is unstoppable voice so once I'm and I've had the luck of meeting so many wonderful podcasters in this journey of being a guest that I'm hoping that when it's time I'll be able to reach out and you know maybe go back on and some of these and introduce my podcast and have some of those guys come on but mostly what I would love to interview is people who stutter who are ready to put themselves out there and I and a podcast is a big deal when when we do 

Rich Bennett 59:40
it is 

James Burden 59:41
the 

Rich Bennett 59:41
it's 

James Burden 59:41
higher 

Rich Bennett 59:41
a lot of work. 

James Burden 59:43
Well I mean that side of it but like if you're a person who stutter is going on a podcast and talking in front of thousands of 

Rich Bennett 59:50
people yeah 

James Burden 59:51
it's gonna be like a big deal on the inside so I am looking at interview people who have already like done what I'm helping people do independently or people who perhaps have gone through my program or similar program or who are ready to challenge themselves by being on such a public forum, but of course 

Rich Bennett 1:00:14
that'd be great 

James Burden 1:00:14
in the program itself we don't start there we're gonna start with little 

Rich Bennett 1:00:19
right. 

James Burden 1:00:20
But that can be a goal that can be a goal going to a job interview to be a goal speaking it away can be a goal people decide what their goals are and I am not here to. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:34
Well 

James Burden 1:00:35
if 

Rich Bennett 1:00:38
you need any advice or tips when it's come when it comes time about starting your podcast feel free to ask me anything man. I love helping other people that want to get into podcasting and and people that are in it now, I mean 

James Burden 1:00:54
I think I think I don't know when it's gonna happen but 

Rich Bennett 1:00:57
I love the, 

James Burden 1:00:58
long idea. I really I'm 

Rich Bennett 1:01:01
I love 

James Burden 1:01:01
I'm 

Rich Bennett 1:01:01
the 

James Burden 1:01:02
excited 

Rich Bennett 1:01:02
that's a great idea. 

I 

James Burden 1:01:07
think there's so many stories of people that are just killing it out there just killing it out there they're killing it and they're doing it 

Rich Bennett 1:01:14
yeah. 

James Burden 1:01:14
With this that sometimes they're using their speech techniques but they're out there and that's the main thing it doesn't matter what tools you use to put yourselves out there that what's important is that people's voice gets hurt however they 

Rich Bennett 1:01:29
write and actually something very important how do people get in touch with you? 

James Burden 1:01:37
Well I've recently made a change to that it's much more 

Rich Bennett 1:01:41
okay 

James Burden 1:01:42
I got into all this stuff about funnels and marketing and all this kind of but now it's really simple I got a landing page got my email on it. You can either email me to reach out and just ask me a question or I've got a stay connected button you have to click that button you can enter your email and I will very gently send you a reminder that I'm here about once a week this isn't about like flooding people's inbox and doing all that and 

Rich Bennett 1:02:13
mm-hmm 

James Burden 1:02:14
like passive marketing people who stutter are going to come to this when they're ready not when I'm ready. So flooding their inbox with reminders is not going to help this is a and if in those emails if the if someone gets a few of those emails and wants to reach out then we can take it to another level and start talking a little bit more but that it's a gradual entry and I and we're not talking about a program that you have to spend thousands of dollars on and commit to a certain amount of time. I think people need to come and need to do a few sessions if they want to really get into it we can. If they're really feeling committed great but if they aren't if they just want to test the waters I think people need to be able to do that. I don't think people need to 

Rich Bennett 1:03:04
Yeah, 

James Burden 1:03:04
have to be forced to box where they have to do a program let's come and go and if you really like it and you can come for a longer stay and we can set up a package but I don't want people to feel like oh no if I email this guy he's going to try and talk me into some huge thing like no that doesn't work when we're dealing with something that people have taken years to get the courage to ask for 

Rich Bennett 1:03:31
help for. 

Well James you forgot something though. What's the landing 

James Burden 1:03:37
What's 

Rich Bennett 1:03:37
page? How 

James Burden 1:03:38
that? 

Rich Bennett 1:03:38
do people get to it. 

James Burden 1:03:39
Oh, dear. It's... 

Rich Bennett 1:03:41
You are real. 

James Burden 1:03:43
It's considering blueprint.com. So I'm going to I've got one that I'll send it to you right now so stuttering blueprint.com, I think it might be slash register but just go with I know what stuttering blueprint.com 

Rich Bennett 1:03:57
Yeah. 

James Burden 1:03:57
and I'll put the full link in the chat for you and you can pop that into the show notes if you don't mind so people know where to find 

Rich Bennett 1:04:09
me. Ag yeah, I know I know what stuttering blueprint.com that there's the floating button called Sheriff Me Hal when people click on that it has... 

James Burden 1:04:19
Oh I think you might have an awkward 

Rich Bennett 1:04:21
Serve 

James Burden 1:04:21
website. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:22
your spot now. 

James Burden 1:04:25
Oh. Oh I think maybe I'll do an old one here let me uh I, uh, here try this one. 

That one shouldn't go to the right one. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:38
Oh. 

James Burden 1:04:39
There we 

Rich Bennett 1:04:40
Oh, 

James Burden 1:04:40
are. Slightly. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:40
okay. I see. Yeah. Oh, that forward slash register makes a big difference. 

James Burden 1:04:48
Yeah, there we go. I'm going to make sure that the other one. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:51
Okay. 

All right, 

James Burden 1:04:56
I recently made this change away. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:58
All 

James Burden 1:05:00
right, so 

Rich Bennett 1:05:04
smart. Before I get to my last question, is there anything you would like to add? 

James Burden 1:05:13
I suppose if I may speak to the audience directly again, if you're out there. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:20
Absolutely. 

James Burden 1:05:22
And you feel still feel like stuttering as a struggle and you just want to explore. I encourage you to reach out or or join my, uh, stay connected on my website. This is not about forcing you into doing something that you don't want to do. This is a gentle reminder when you're ready. And if you want to explore whether you are ready, we can have a email conversation or even set up a call. But this is never going to be a pressure situation because I know it's not going to work for people. And if you are listening to this and you know somebody who stutters and maybe you're feeling like you'd like to share this with them, but you don't want to embarrass them or anything like that. I totally understand that. The way I'm approaching this is so 

gentle. That I think even if you just shared a podcast about it and just let them come to their own thoughts on it, because I don't want other people being in this, like I don't want to like improve somebody else either. The whole approach is gentle, the whole approach is slow and at your own pace, and that is what I want people to know so they don't feel like they're having to sign up for some huge thing. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:53
Alright, so James, I started doing something different with the last question. I have 50 questions. I have no idea what they are. The weird 

James Burden 1:07:05
is 

Rich Bennett 1:07:05
thing 

James Burden 1:07:05
OK. 

Rich Bennett 1:07:06
So the other guests have picked the numbers and I don't know how this has worked out. I don't know if they if they could like read the numbers on the sheet of paper. I have or what? But the questions have aligned or the question had aligned with what we were talking about. So I'm going to see if this happens with you as well. So pick a number between 1 and 50. 

James Burden 1:07:30
The one in. Sorry. You cut out for second one in 

Rich Bennett 1:07:33
what 

James Burden 1:07:33
between one and 

Rich Bennett 1:07:34
50? 

James Burden 1:07:35
1 and 50, OK. As soon as you started talking about this, the number seven popped into my head like super strong. So I'm just super curious to see what seven is. 

Rich Bennett 1:07:49
Oh, actually, it's a good question. What's a small act of kindness? You witnessed or experienced that profoundly impacted you? 

James Burden 1:08:08
OK, I was, this was a few months ago and I was in India and I was nearing the end of my journey to see my grandfather's home. And I it had been a grueling journey, you know, overnight bus rides and like relatively inexpensive hostels and travel and move and see things and travel and move and see things. So I was tired. And this one day, I was feeling very lost. I didn't know what to wait if I was in going the right direction and I had my big heavy backpack on it. I saw these guys. All dressed in there. They're there sort of robes and they were all going somewhere and I saw and they all looked like they were going somewhere to do something like like a spiritual like going to a temple. So I followed them and I started talking to these guys and in their limited English and me having none of the Indian languages and they invited me along and I followed them and we stopped at this temple and we and they had their meeting. And then they were going to the next temple, the bigger temple and I was following them and I had my big super heavy backpack on and they were walking and eventually I just couldn't keep up. I kept walking and walking and walking and I walk so far with this bag and I was absolutely exhausted and I didn't know where they were. Eventually I just stuck my phone down and this guy comes and stops and he picks me up and he takes me to the next town and 

it turns out in a conversation that he's a taxi driver and you always always when you're traveling you got to like negotiate the taxi price before you get to the destination or it's going to be four or five times as much. 

Rich Bennett 1:10:01
was 

James Burden 1:10:01
But 

Rich Bennett 1:10:02
a 

James Burden 1:10:02
he 

Rich Bennett 1:10:02
while. 

James Burden 1:10:02
He wasn't because you got to negotiate is the the just going to say any price they want. And if you if you didn't negotiate it, then you got to pay because you didn't know. I mean, this is how negotiating taxis works in a lot of countries. And 

Rich Bennett 1:10:17
interesting. 

James Burden 1:10:17
So I was like, we got there, and I thought I was just thumb to ride, and now he's a taxi driver so I'm like, oh my god. And no, he was giving me a ride for absolutely nothing in a country- 

Rich Bennett 1:10:28
Wow. 

James Burden 1:10:28
People are, he's a cab driver. This is how he makes his living. And it was just an act of kindness. In a moment of utter exhaustion when I was tired and I- and I didn't know how to get to where I was going. I was literally lost and emotionally lost, and this act of kindness just- it touched me because it was when I needed 

Rich Bennett 1:10:56
it. Yeah. 

James Burden 1:10:56
And I- and I still think about that guy. It was like, you know, I only met him for 20 minutes, but very maybe half an hour, but just- 

Rich Bennett 1:11:06
Yeah, 

James Burden 1:11:06
did. 

Rich Bennett 1:11:06
he 

James Burden 1:11:06
Amazing. 

Rich Bennett 1:11:07
Stopp and pick you up. 

James Burden 1:11:08
I- I don't think any- I don't think I got anything for free in India except for that. 

Rich Bennett 1:11:15
Wow, that's amazing. That- that is. That was a good question. I like that one. This is funny. It's get questions that I have no idea what they are. 

James, I want to thank you so much. Look, when you're ready to start the podcast, when the book comes out- 

James Burden 1:11:37
I'll be talking to you. Let's keep in contact. Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 1:11:42
Absolutely. Thanks a lot. 

Rich Bennett 1:11:45
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love it if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at ConversationsWithRitchBent.com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care, be kind and keep the conversations going. It takes a lot to put a podcast together. And my sponsors help add a lot, but I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing software, the hosting, and so forth. There's a lot that goes into putting this together. So I want to thank them, and if you can, please visit their websites, visit their businesses, support them however you can. So please visit the following. Real-life Real-life prosthetics, cutting-edge solutions, restoring ability since 2001. Go to reallifeprostetics.com. Full circle boards. Nobody does charcuterie like full circle boards. Visit them at fullcircleboards.com. Sincerely, Sincerely, Sincerely, so you're photography. Live in the moment. They'll capture it. Visit them at sincerelysoyer.com.