Lee Ann Walling on Strong Faith, Friendship and Healing

Wendy & Rich 0:01
Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios, Harvard County Living Presents, Conversations with Rich Bennett. 

I love this guy. You're not like Shia Laugh! You're not like Shia Laugh! I never went off to watch. I don't know what he's going to say today. He's probably the second person to watch this. He's going to be happy, he's going to be happy. No, no, no, no, it's not. It's true. What

Rich Bennett 0:27
do you do when life completely changes in an instant? When the person you built your world around is suddenly gone. And you're left with grief, guilt, and a road ahead you never plan to travel. For some people, that's where the story ends. But for today's guests, that's where it truly begins. Lee Ann Walling didn't just write a novel. She lived a lifetime of reinvenged you before putting pen to paper. Journalists, political appointee, laying-use planner, website designer. Bathroom singer, now I'm joking about the bathroom singer part. It's 68 years old. She went back to school, earned her MFA, and published her debut novel at 69. Her book, The Salt and Light Express, takes us on a deeply human road trip. Following an older woman, navigating loss, identity, faith, and connection in a world that doesn't always make space for her story. How you doing, Lee Ann? 

Lee Ann Walling 1:32
Wow, I'm doing really well now. That's a great introduction. Thanks, 

Rich Bennett 1:35
Oh, 

Lee Ann Walling 1:35
Rich. 

Rich Bennett 1:36
well, thank you. Thank you. I-- first, I got to ask you this first, because usually I don't go right into the book. But the cover. Who designed it? 

Lee Ann Walling 1:50
I used a consultant called Monkey, see media in San Diego, and she kind of helped me hand-held me through the whole publishing process in one of her people designed the cover. So it's, you know, it's-- it's not Canva, it's not 

Rich Bennett 2:08
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 2:08
AI, it's a real artist designing the cover. And they gave me several four options to look at, and that's the one everybody seemed to like. 

Rich Bennett 2:16
I love it. 

Lee Ann Walling 2:16
Yeah, me too. It kind of-- it fits so well 

Rich Bennett 2:19
book. 

Lee Ann Walling 2:19
with 

Rich Bennett 2:19
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 2:19
the 

Rich Bennett 2:20
And it's not one of those covers that just like-- it like explodes, like it's too loud. There are some covers where they're just too loud. Th is nice, and to me calm. Does that make sense? 

Lee Ann Walling 2:34
Yeah, it tells-- it really tells the story. The-- you know, the setting and the little red RV going through it. 

Rich Bennett 2:41
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 2:41
Yeah. Yeah. And the colors, those are my colors, and those are the colors of the West. So yeah, or-- 

Rich Bennett 2:47
Okay. 

Lee Ann Walling 2:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 2:49
All right. Well, now that we got that out of way, I want to start with the moment that really sets everything emotion. Both in your book, and in many ways real life. When someone loses a partner that they've built their life around, everything changes every night. So what drew you to tell this story through a road trip? And what does that journey represent on a deeper level? 

Lee Ann Walling 3:16
Yeah, I mean, I've been with my partner 40 in one years, and she's still alive. 

Rich Bennett 3:23
Wow. 

Lee Ann Walling 3:24
But she thinks I'm trying to kill her now that she's read the book. 

Because-- because I can actually relate to what happens in the book. They're driving along, and Chris, the main character, is fiddling with the radio, and they-- she does not see this person, this teenager coming at them, who-- through a stop sign who's texting, and has had a little too much to drink. And-- and she broadsides them, and kills Sally, her partner. And-- I can-- you know, that was real real to me. I could really feel the feels of losing somebody that way. And the guilt that would-- that would come of that after that happened. When you know that you probably could have prevented it by swarming or just paying attention. So I've been a lot more-- I haven't-- I didn't have a new car, a Subaru that beeps at me, but I don't-- 

Rich Bennett 4:16
[LAUGHS] 

Lee Ann Walling 4:16
My eyes aren't on the road. It beeps a lot. So keep your eyes on the road. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. But yeah, and then-- so kind of a year goes by of her being, you know, just spiraling, drinking too much. And it's COVID. I mean, it's like the worst-- the worst of times. I don't dwell a lot on COVID because I know nobody really still wants to read about it, you know, 

Rich Bennett 4:38
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 4:38
that period yet. But so she comes out of it, and she decides to, you know, go on this trip out west, and take Sally's ashes with her to Bryce Canyon, which is one of their favorite places on Earth. And so she heads out that way, and she-- her first stop after the Walmart parking lots every night is Moab. And that's where she meets the first cast of characters. 

Rich Bennett 5:03
Moab? 

Lee Ann Walling 5:03
Moab you tall. It's, uh, 

Rich Bennett 5:05
Ow. 

Lee Ann Walling 5:06
yeah, yeah, yeah. It's where arches is. In, uh, um, 

just with their, you know, a, uh, RV. And, but they turn out to have a hearty gold, you know, and being 

Rich Bennett 5:37
Mhmm. 

Lee Ann Walling 5:37
very generous with something that happens at the campground. And then she meets a woman, their name Claire, uh, she's actually a, a black woman whose son has been killed, uh, by a vigilante. He was an off-duty cop. And he, there was a, one of those masculine incidents that always happened during COVID where so many was refusing to put on a mask and he tried to talk him down and some woman thought that he was the bad guy because he was black and he was actually an off-duty police detective and she, she shoots him. So Claire, yeah, so Claire and Chris are both out there in Moab sort of, you know, escaping from tragedy or trying to, uh, recover from tragedy. And that, uh, uh, so that's what happens in the first part of the book. And then, you know, everybody breaks up in the campground and they move on. Claire goes back to Denver to be with her family and Chris goes on to Bryce Canyon. And then she decides to reconnect with her family in the hill country of Texas, which happens to be where most of my family still lives. Uh, it's, so it's an area that I just love very much. 

Rich Bennett 6:42
Mhmm. Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 6:42
Yeah, I don't know if you've ever been Fredericksburg, Kerville, that area. 

Rich Bennett 6:45
Not yet, 

Lee Ann Walling 6:46
Yeah, it's really nice. And, um, so she goes, she decides to reconnect with her family that she hasn't seen for, you know, decades, but they're very evangelical and it doesn't go, it doesn't go very well. So that's kind of the second part of the book is her. Uh, she has a friendship with a Baptist preacher named Jared, uh, and she meets him at the Starbucks there on Starbucks that I know very well, that's really there. And she's, you know, she makes all kinds of assumptions about Jared because he's, you know, Southern Baptist preacher and she thinks he'll rebuke her and judge her. And he turns out to be like her greatest friend. So it's kind of about, you know, how are assumptions getting the way 

Rich Bennett 7:29
right. 

Lee Ann Walling 7:29
of, uh, really connecting with people, uh, whether it's her family or the people that she meets in the campground or Jared. You know, if you just put yourself out there and kind of open yourself up and listen, uh, that people can be there for you, help you heal, help you recover, uh, be your friend, uh, and lead you to the next step of your life. So it's a pretty, I mean, it starts out, it sounds kind of depressing, the way you first described it, but I think it's a, it's a hopeful book, you know, it's an inspiration. 

Rich Bennett 8:01
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 8:01
A book. Um, and I'm, you know, happy with, uh, a lot of book clubs. I'm dropping into book clubs, like in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in Austin, Texas to talk about it. Uh, church groups are reading it, you know, uh, just because there's a lot of spirituality in the book and she struggles with a lot, with, with what is faith and, you know, what does it take to be a Christian in 21st century, you know, you know, America and, you know, what, how do you deal with the cultural divides that are just polarizing us so terribly? 

Rich Bennett 8:35
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 8:35
And uh, so there's a lot of that, uh, waiting through that stuff in the book. And hopefully, uh, of compelling fashion where people really care about what happens to her. They seem to, uh, um, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:50
All right. So, man, let's see people, I'm already sold on the books that you got to read it. But as you were, as you were writing it, and just listening to everything you just said, how much of that journey was about the character and how much of it was you processing your own experiences with change, faith, and life in general. 

Lee Ann Walling 9:20
Yeah. People laugh and call me Chris all the time. That's the name of the main character. I would say it kind of almost started off as an autobiographical, you know, work of fiction. And in the original plan was she was going to reunite with her, you know, judgy evangelical family and they would find some common ground and reconnect and everything would be great. And I just didn't take long to realize that A, that was pretty boring. Just that was a, you know, not much of an ending and be probably not realistic, you know, the more I wrote. And that's funny, you know, writing these things. Like as I was writing, I realized I would not want to, I used to think I wanted an RV. And even 

Rich Bennett 10:04
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 10:04
if I were going to travel by myself, I would do it if I had to travel by myself. But I realized how lonely I would be, you know, 

Rich Bennett 10:12
Right. Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 10:13
if I were in this, all these beautiful places all by myself and other people in the campground living their lives with their kids on their bicycles and, you know, frying up steak or cooking up steaks and all that stuff. And I'd be lonely. So it did, it did erase my desire to have an RV. A lot of people think, well, it sounds like you've, you know, lived in one or been in 

Rich Bennett 10:36
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 10:36
one or at least have one because it's pretty realistic. But I used to, I, there was a Facebook group or still that is called friendly RV camping women. And I would go in there. Yeah, I would go in there and bounce things off of them, you know. Yeah. And the opening scene where the little kid pees on her tree is actually from an anecdote that one of the women told me, you know, that people don't, you know, sometimes people are gonna like to use the bathroom and their campers. So 

Rich Bennett 11:07
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 11:07
they're always, you know, sending their kids to the campground bathroom and that's what happened. The kid couldn't make it any peep on her campsite. That was the opening of the book. And I'll, a lot of, I got a lot of other stuff. I just balanced technical questions off of them about RV life. And they were, 

Rich Bennett 11:25
that's 

Lee Ann Walling 11:25
super helpful. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 11:27
That's very smart because. And that's one of the things I love the AS authors is what kind of research did you do? And I, I'm pretty sure you're the first one that ever mentioned a Facebook group, especially on kid. What other kind of research did you do for this? Because if you're traveling across country. 

Lee Ann Walling 11:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 11:48
You're not, but you know, the character. 

Lee Ann Walling 11:50
I had, I've had pretty much Google Earth on my screen at all times. Just to make sure that I get, I probably obsessed too much about authenticity and accuracy. Cause it was, it's the former reporter in me, you know. 

Rich Bennett 12:04
Yeah. That's smart because people will call you in. 

Lee Ann Walling 12:06
Yeah, they will. They will. And in fact, I had originally called the town curvil, which is, that she goes to in Texas, which is its real name. And then I was obsessing about, well, you can't ride a bike from here to here. And so I'm just going to change the name of the town so that, you know, people aren't calling me out on, that's not there. This is over here. 

Rich Bennett 12:25
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 12:25
So yeah, that, that was like the one thing I made up, well, I made up all the characters, of course, but the name of the town, everybody who knows the hill country knows that that's curvil. Texas. 

Rich Bennett 12:35
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 12:36
It, you know, it doesn't take much to figure that out. But yeah, I, I would get caught up. I would definitely make sure that how, how, how would she have traveled out west, you know, what highway would she have taken? What sites would have along the way? What sites would have been along the way? That's, it's really important to me to get that right. And this was before, and now on the second book, you know, I've discovered Perplexity, which is an AI engine. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. 

Rich Bennett 13:04
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 13:05
Yeah. And so just as an example, for the second book, I needed to know what the statute of limitations was in 1973 in France for a hit and run accident. 

Rich Bennett 13:17
Oh wow. 

Lee Ann Walling 13:17
And I'm like, how in the world am I going to figure that out? I'm going to have to dust off my high school French and, you know, try to figure, you know, go read newspapers in French or something. and then I, somebody told me about perplexity, and they gave me an answer in seconds with, you know, 25 sources. So, that's been, that wasn't around for the first book. The first book 

Rich Bennett 13:38
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 13:38
was me with my Google Earth and my, you know, maps and, and just making sure that I was accurate about the history. There's a, there's a, a side story. It's actually turns into the climax of this book that Salt and Light Express about, uh, the Alamo. And, she, uh, volunteers at this little small town library, and they decide to have a panel discussion on the Alamo, which sounds kind of, uh, like, not a big deal, except there's a lot of controversy brewing down there right now about the real motivations of the people who fought at the Alamo, who were the good guys, who were the bad 

Rich Bennett 14:12
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 14:13
guys, was it about slavery? And so, it turns into a big culture wars divide issue, and it actually turns violent at the end. So, I had to a lot of research on that, but I, I grew up in Texas and I had mandatory, uh, Texas history in seventh grade. So I knew that the Alamo was sacred lore, you know, uh, uh, and, and then to have that challenge is, which is what's happening down there right now is really, uh, getting people up in arms, yep. 

Rich Bennett 14:44
Mandatory Texas history. 

Lee Ann Walling 14:45
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:47
That's, I've never, every state should have that. I wonder if they do probably 

Lee Ann Walling 14:52
I don't think so. I don't remember, uh, yeah, it's, uh, seventh grade. The first semester was history and the second semester was geography. And I think they'd even added on more requirements, uh, since then. But, I mean, you got to admit Texas has a pretty colorful 

Rich Bennett 15:08
not. 

Lee Ann Walling 15:08
history. 

Rich Bennett 15:08
Well, 

Lee Ann Walling 15:09
I 

Rich Bennett 15:09
mean, but you know, now that you mention that, it probably, well, it would be a great idea to make not just mandatory state history, but even your local 

Lee Ann Walling 15:22
history, yeah, Maryland has a really colorful 

Rich Bennett 15:24
Yeah. Oh, 

Lee Ann Walling 15:25
history. 

Rich Bennett 15:25
yeah. Every state does. 

Lee Ann Walling 15:27
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 15:28
You know, I mean, wow, it'd be interesting. All right. So. Leanne, I got to ask you this, 

Lee Ann Walling 15:36
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 15:36
because when you mentioned in the beginning, in the accident, 

Lee Ann Walling 15:39
uh-huh. 

Rich Bennett 15:39
And with your partner, 

Lee Ann Walling 15:41
uh-huh. 

Rich Bennett 15:42
How much clean next did you go through writing this? It had to get emotional for you at times. 

Lee Ann Walling 15:49
Yeah, it did. And actually, the most emotional, uh, part was, uh, At the end of our, uh, semester, fine arts program at Drexel 

Rich Bennett 15:58
mm-hmm. 

Lee Ann Walling 15:58
and Philly, you know, we had a, uh, on campus residency and I had to do a reading from the book. And I think it was just the combination of, it was the end of the program I was going to miss everybody. And I read, I read the part of the book where she spreads her ashes at Bryce Canyon. And I just choked up. It was, you know, it was kind of embarrassing, but that's the, that's really the, I can't go back in, the book and read the parts where she figures out, you know, she, she's kind of in a fog the first few days after the accident, and can't remember what happens. 

Rich Bennett 16:30
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 16:30
Then she hears the song "Gust in the Wind" and she 

Rich Bennett 16:32
Oh 

Lee Ann Walling 16:33
remembers that that was the song she was fiddling with on the radio. Brown Sugar by, by, by, uh, Rolling Stones was playing and she hated that song. So she was fiddling to find another song and that's when the accident happened. So I can't, it's really hard for me to go back and read that particular chapter. It's called "Dust in the Wind" because it's, it's really, you know, sad. And then, and the parts about COVID, I don't go into a whole lot of detail about COVID. There's a couple of paragraphs here and there, but that's, that's really hard for anybody 

Rich Bennett 17:04
my yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 17:04
who went through it. I mean, you're, you're in Maryland. You had a pretty hard shutdown in Maryland 

Rich Bennett 17:09
Oh 

Lee Ann Walling 17:09
if I 

Rich Bennett 17:09
yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 17:09
were, yeah. So did we. We didn't go anywhere for a year, basically, church nothing. So, uh, that's? 

Rich Bennett 17:15
Daughters graduation year too 

Lee Ann Walling 17:17
school. 

Rich Bennett 17:17
from high 

Lee Ann Walling 17:17
Oh my God. Yeah. So it's really hard to put yourself back in that place and remember, uh, just how restraining and how, how, uh, you just felt like a prisoner, you know, who couldn't do anything. 

Rich Bennett 17:31
All right. You mentioned "Dust in the Wind." 

Lee Ann Walling 17:33
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 17:34
Did you purposely add that song in there 

Lee Ann Walling 17:39
because? 

Rich Bennett 17:41
Yeah. Well, the, the ashes were, 

Lee Ann Walling 17:43
Yeah. It's 

Rich Bennett 17:43
because 

Lee Ann Walling 17:43
a 

Rich Bennett 17:44
to me, 

Lee Ann Walling 17:44
sad 

Rich Bennett 17:44
that's perfect. 

Lee Ann Walling 17:45
song. 

Rich Bennett 17:45
But it's perfect because you hear the characters driving across town to take the ashes to Bryce Canyon, which would be dust in the wind. 

Lee Ann Walling 17:54
Yeah. Wow. You've taken it than even I probably 

Rich Bennett 17:58
Okay. 

Lee Ann Walling 17:58
took 

Rich Bennett 17:59
it. 

Lee Ann Walling 18:01
But it's funny that you mentioned the songs, because, uh, you know, it was young and naive and a couple of years ago and writing. I'd, I'd have like lyrics from, I had, you know, the lyrics from "Dust in the Wind." Uh, and I had lyrics from other things. And I had, there's a big part of the There's a big chapter that involves, I left my heart in San Francisco, it's a song that's 

Rich Bennett 18:24
oh wow. 

Lee Ann Walling 18:25
a big part of this particular chapter when she kind of has a breakthrough. And I, you know, and people give you bad advice about song lyrics. Oh, yes, as long as you only, you know, print, you know, this, you know, this much with that much. no way you cannot, so I had to scrub out all the song lyrics except for because another, another chapter is called stone sold picnic that was a remember that fifth dimension song. 

Rich Bennett 18:50
Yes, 

Lee Ann Walling 18:51
Hello, 

Rich Bennett 18:52
and on the flip side of that was now you're 

Lee Ann Walling 18:59
going to make me look in a, 

Rich Bennett 19:01
will you marry me Bill? 

Lee Ann Walling 19:03
Oh, okay. 

Rich Bennett 19:04
yeah, 

Lee Ann Walling 19:04
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 19:05
yeah, 'cause I remember I was a DJ for wedding and they wanted that. 

Lee Ann Walling 19:08
so I took out all the song lyrics, except for I left my heart in San Francisco. There was just no way I could take that out, 'cause 

Rich Bennett 19:15
Yeah, 

Lee Ann Walling 19:16
yeah.And  I, so I had to write, uh, who was it, BMI, or somebody like that, it took a while to figure out who would give 

Rich Bennett 19:23
premier, 

Lee Ann Walling 19:23
you the 

Rich Bennett 19:23
who owns the rights to it, yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 19:25
530 dollars later, I got to use, I got permission to use the song lyrics for 

Rich Bennett 19:31
Wow. 

Lee Ann Walling 19:31
I left my, but I just couldn't take it out. So I made a Spotify playlist from, 

Rich Bennett 19:36
I was going to ask you that. 

Lee Ann Walling 19:39
I read about somebody else who did that they made a Spotify playlist from all the songs in the book. There are 16 songs mentioned. So that's. 

Rich Bennett 19:47
Now, is there a link in the books that people can listen to the Spotify playlist? 

Lee Ann Walling 19:53
Yeah, it's on my website, I think. 

Rich Bennett 19:56
Yeah. Okay, 

Lee Ann Walling 19:56
Yeah, but it's called, if you go to Spotify, it's called the Salt and Light Express playlist. And it's, 

Rich Bennett 20:02
okay. 

Lee Ann Walling 20:02
it's quite the eclectic mishmash of songs. 

Rich Bennett 20:06
I'm glad you brought that part up a pair. I left my heart in San Francisco because unfortunately a lot of new authors 

Lee Ann Walling 20:14
don't 

Rich Bennett 20:16
realize certain things you cannot put in your book. Un you get permission. 

Lee Ann Walling 20:21
right. You can use the song title. That's okay, but not 

Rich Bennett 20:24
Yeah, 

Lee Ann Walling 20:24
any lyrics. 

Rich Bennett 20:26
Now, 

Lee Ann Walling 20:26
I had a ton of lyrics. I mean. 

Rich Bennett 20:31
What Tony Bennett wasn't going to come yell at you. 

Lee Ann Walling 20:33
I mean, I got, I got bad advice from like people who should know better like agents and things like that. So 

Rich Bennett 20:39
Really? 

Lee Ann Walling 20:39
I would just tell people, you know, do your own research. I think I explained I explained. I'm on substack. And I explained in one substack how I've tracked down, you know, how to get permission to use the song and how you really can't use lyrics in a book. Because I think people. They just, you know, there's all these lots. There's all these rules of thumb that aren't real. Like you can, you can use a line or you can use 30 seconds worth of no, you can't use any. So, 

Rich Bennett 21:07
yeah, I did an episode on. 

FDR's fireside chats. And I wanted to use his one fire, I think it was his fireside chat about the bank in industry at the time. 

Lee Ann Walling 21:21
You think that would be public domain. 

Rich Bennett 21:23
it is public domain, 

Lee Ann Walling 21:24
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 21:24
but I still like to ask for the permit. Which I was able to get permission for because I wanted to I'm doing some episodes about American history, you know, because 250. 

Lee Ann Walling 21:40
And 

Rich Bennett 21:41
I dose fireside chats, granted I was not born yet. But to me, that is a big part of American history. And I found them and I wanted to say, okay, God, if I could just play this instead of me reading the fireside. In his. 

Lee Ann Walling 21:56
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 21:57
Yeah, they allow it. It's like, okay, but now I'm getting into the author part. God, this is going to be scary. Can you share some of the bad advice that you've gotten? 

Lee Ann Walling 22:11
Oh, my God. 

This 

Rich Bennett 22:15
is because there's a lot of inspiring authors that listen 

Lee Ann Walling 22:19
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a whole controversy over whether to get a master of fine arts in writing or not, and I wasn't even really aware of that at the time. You know, some people think it ruins your writing, and some people 

Rich Bennett 22:31
really. 

Lee Ann Walling 22:31
think, yeah, I mean, it depends on the program. There's a lot of different programs out there. 

Rich Bennett 22:36
Yeah, 

Lee Ann Walling 22:36
There's some that are so... Arts was very practical at Drexel, I mean, it emphasized, you know, not just craft, but how to actually get your book published, which I thought was really important. But I mean, there's a lot of... Like, I went through the... When I first wrote the book or was getting ready to publish the book, I thought, everybody thinks they're going to get an agent, you know? 

Rich Bennett 22:59
right. 

Lee Ann Walling 22:59
And I'll tell you, I mean, I know if people go through hundreds of queries, they write a query letter trying to get an agent, the agents have, they get thousands of queries a year. And then the publishing industry... Publishing industry is consolidating so much to the point where if you're not a sure thing, or you don't have some kind of a leg up, you know, some kind of connection, you are just out of luck. So it didn't take me... It took me 23 queries to realize that, you know, and people would give you advice about your query, can't be more than this many words, and you have to start with this, and you put your comparable titles in here, and you do this, and you do that. And it was, you know, they were contradicting each other right and left. So I finally, I had almost given up, you know, I had almost given up, and I came across this blog post by this woman named Jennifer Thompson, who is part of this company that takes you through the process of independently publishing your 

Rich Bennett 24:02
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 24:02
novel. Not uploading it to Amazon, you know, but really, I mean, my novel is available anywhere, you know, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Audible, leadbro. fm, I mean, it's libraries, you know, libraries, 

Rich Bennett 24:17
Right. Good. 

Lee Ann Walling 24:17
because of the library aspect, in the book, or they've bought, I've bought sold a lot of copies to libraries. So, yeah, there's just a lot of bad advice, even in the, you know, a rarefied atmosphere of an MFA program, I think people, you know, I'm sort of becoming this ambassador for indie publishing, or doing it right. 

Rich Bennett 24:40
Good, yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 24:41
Yeah, because I mean, I've, you know, I see posts on subs, you can do it for, you know, $100, I can design my own cover and Canva, and I'm like, you know, what you pay for. You have to spend a little money. I probably spent too much. I don't even really want to say what I spent the first time around. But I decided to try everything. I got an audio, 

Rich Bennett 25:01
you learn from it. 

Lee Ann Walling 25:03
Yeah, absolutely. I'll be ready for the next one. 

Rich Bennett 25:06
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 25:06
I got an audio book narrator, you know, production, and that cost extra money. 

Rich Bennett 25:11
Well, that's not cheap. 

Lee Ann Walling 25:12
No, it is not. But I'm real happy with the project, and I'm glad I did it in libraries, you know, that's another way into libraries is through your audio book. So, but back to your original question. Oh, yeah, I learned all kinds of wrong stuff. 

But the reason the main reason I went, I took the MFA or decided this was one of those things that, you know, when you're soul searching during COVID, because you don't have anything else to do, you're like, what's my one, you know, do I have any regrets? Not really, I wish I'd written a book, you know, I wish I'd written a novel. And so I started to poke around and look and see what was out there. And I thought, well, if I'm going to spend this much money on tuition, I better start and finish, you know, a manuscript while I'm there. And I did, I think I'm the only person in my cohort who actually started and finished a manuscript, you know, over the course of the program. So, yeah, yeah, so I was one of the oldest students, not the oldest, but one of the oldest. 

Rich Bennett 26:14
But you know, I'm sure with, you know, gett the MFA, because you were a journalist, it saved me a firm wrong, but writing a novel is completely different. 

Lee Ann Walling 26:24
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 26:25
I mean, 

Lee Ann Walling 26:26
you get to make stuff up. 

You're not supposed to. 

Rich Bennett 26:32
But I'm sure that did help you out of 

Lee Ann Walling 26:34
right. Yeah, I have a conversational style. I hope that's not, 

Rich Bennett 26:38
that right? 

Lee Ann Walling 26:39
you know, a real turjit or anything. And I did learn, I didn't learn to dumb down, you know, language for people. But I learned a lot of, I learned to be colorful, and I learned to be descriptive, but not overleased 

Rich Bennett 26:53
Right, 

Lee Ann Walling 26:54
of. And so I think that helped me being old helps rich, you know, I mean. 

Rich Bennett 27:00
It's because we're wiser. 

Lee Ann Walling 27:01
Yet we are a wiser and we've got all these experiences to draw on. Just look just to sprinkle into your story. You know, this or that, I can't imagine now having, you know, being right out of college and trying to write a novel. I mean, what would I know? I had I would have no life experience. So I'm sort of, I don't, so I, I satisfied my only regret, which was that I hadn't written a and now I'm working on the second one. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:30
All right. So with this one, when you finished it, and I love the fact that on your website, you talk about the publication part, which I've never seen that that I 

Lee Ann Walling 27:42
of. 

Rich Bennett 27:43
know 

Lee Ann Walling 27:43
Trying to be helpful to people. 

Rich Bennett 27:45
Yeah. And that's, that's what I about. 

Lee Ann Walling 27:47
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:47
You're helping other inspiring authors. How long after you finished the manuscript and then what after that was the editing, right? 

Lee Ann Walling 27:59
Yeah. I had, I've I've wrote it. I've pretty much finished it during the first year of the pro two year program. We have 

Rich Bennett 28:07
anything and everything. 

Lee Ann Walling 28:08
No, no, no, the first draft. 

Rich Bennett 28:11
Okay. 

Lee Ann Walling 28:11
Yeah, we had a class called novel writing intensive, which nobody, everybody was afraid of, but our job was to, was to upload 4,500 words a week to the professor, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, so by the end of the quarter, a 10-week quarter, I had written 50,000 words of the novel, which turned out 

Rich Bennett 28:32
Wow. 

Lee Ann Walling 28:32
to be 89,000 words. And so if if it weren't for her, I don't know. I probably, I might still be trying to figure it out. 

Rich Bennett 28:40
You're right. 

Lee Ann Walling 28:41
Yeah. So that the second year of the program, I, we work with a mentor. And my mentor was a woman named Amy Runyon who's written a lot of historical fiction. She's not like super well known, but if you're in the historical fiction circles, or the women's fiction circles, she's there. And she read every single word. And, you know, we did some rewrites and, and she helped me with themes and character development and stuff like that. See, I don't have that. Now that I'm out of the program, I don't have that the second time around. So I'm going to have to, you know, lean on some people that, and probably pay some people to help me. 

Rich Bennett 29:21
Have you looked into joining any writer's groups? 

Lee Ann Walling 29:24
Yeah, I mean, I still my, I have my, you know, cohort from the program and other alumni from that program that I can, I can bounce things off of. So that's helpful. And I had a, I have a coach, she helped me kind of plot out what, where I need to revise the second. 

Rich Bennett 29:43
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 29:43
She, she, and she wasn't really that expensive at all. And she was great. So she's giving, I have a, now, whole blueprint, a big spreadsheet of every scene. And I'm ready to sit down and, you know, revise that sucker. And then whatever the next step is, I'm not quite sure, I might send it out to some of my MFA friends and others who, you know, I, I still can't believe that there are people out there who want to read an unpublished novel. 

Rich Bennett 30:09
So you mean the arc readers? 

Lee Ann Walling 30:11
Yeah, the beta readers. Yeah, I just, yeah,even  if they're friends of yours, I'm like, really, you want to spend time reading this? I don't know if I'd want to do that, you know, but there's, it's so helpful. 

Rich Bennett 30:21
I think it's because they like, they like to be, and I want to say this in a positive way. They like to be critics. They like to give you critique on it, which is something that's needed. 

Lee Ann Walling 30:34
Oh, 

Rich Bennett 30:34
Structive 

Lee Ann Walling 30:34
absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 30:35
criticism 

Lee Ann Walling 30:35
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 30:35
is very important, especially for an author. 

Lee Ann Walling 30:38
Yeah. And the first one there was a, there was a kind of, a couple of scenes and everybody who read it said, this just really, it resolves too quickly. You need to, you know, draw it out and create some more suspense. And, you know, when the fifth person had said it, you took that seriously. And even though I knew it was going to be a big chore to, you know, go back and move things around and make sure it flowed, you know, after I'd revised it. Yeah, really, it was fantastic advice. That was a big compelling piece of advice that helped me make the novel a better novel from people volunteering to read it for me was great. 

Rich Bennett 31:16
You're listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

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That's RichBenit, r-i-c-h-b-e-n-n-e-t-t at damband.com, d-a-n-b-e-n.com. Now, let's come back to the conversation. So, after all of that, after the editing, everything, how long before you were able to get it published? 

Lee Ann Walling 32:58
Well, okay. Let's see. Um, like 

Rich Bennett 33:01
it 

Lee Ann Walling 33:01
I- 

Rich Bennett 33:02
was always the process of 

Lee Ann Walling 33:03
that. I got out of the program. I graduated in June of 2024 and I spent the next few months querying agents. And it was probably the end of December when I'm like, this is not going to happen this way. You 

Rich Bennett 33:16
just… 

Lee Ann Walling 33:17
know, it's I, you know, I can either cut my losses and just, you know, go on and do other things with my life, or I can come up with some alternative. And I really didn't, you know, it's kind of embarrassing. I really didn't know that much about independent publishing, or there was this, you know, from being in the MFA program, I might have been a little snotty about it, you know? So once I realized that this was a viable, you know, path to publication with all kinds of resources and healthfulness, and, you know, people to make your product, your book 

Rich Bennett 33:51
And 

Lee Ann Walling 33:52
professional and, you know, polished. It wasn't a hard decision to make because they really control everything. You know, you're not in the hands of paying an agent 15 percent. I mean, you can… And you're the path to publication is much shorter. If I had found an agent, and then that person would have to shop it around to diminishing bunch of publishers, it could have taken years. And it's actually a pretty timely topic right now. You know, our polarization and our divisions, and so… And so from the time I hired Jennifer in January, and, you know, went through all this stuff like, you know, the cover design and buying the ISPN numbers and the layout of the internal e-publication, and then we decided to do a hard cover for libraries, and so we had to design that. I was published and I was ready to go in September, which is a much shorter time frame, you know. Yeah, it came out October 14th. I had a big, you know, book launch at my church in Roeville Beach. So, yeah, and that went really well. So, you know, much shorter time line, but you just… you can't try to do it on the cheap, you know. I had a lot of money saved up and I'm like, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to do a lot of traveling.I  just… This is what I want to spend my money on. So… 

Rich Bennett 35:23
But you're baby. 

Lee Ann Walling 35:24
Yeah, it is, kind of. 

Rich Bennett 35:26
Yeah, it 

Lee Ann Walling 35:26
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 35:27
is. 

Lee Ann Walling 35:27
Am I getting… Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 35:29
No, go ahead. 

Lee Ann Walling 35:29
Oh, it's going to say am I getting rich? No, I mean, not yet. I mean, I feel like it's going to… It's got… What I need is like one famous person, you know, in that space, you know, this kind of the spiritual 

Rich Bennett 35:41
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 35:42
space to say, wow, I've just read this book and it's phenomenal and you know, get it, you know, or, not Oprah, but maybe something. And it's, you it's getting out there. 

Rich Bennett 35:55
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 35:55
So… And podcasts are amazingly helpful. One that get me much more comfortable talking about it, because I'm not the greatest, you know, kind of tend to ramble and babble and stuff, and I'm getting better at it. 

Rich Bennett 36:08
See, here's the thing with that Leigh-Anne, and I think that's great because a lot of authors have grown on and they'll talk about the book, and that's it. However, when the listener finds out more about the author and learns about the author, they love that and they're going to get hooked on their books. That's why you see so many authors, like, you know, Nora Roberts and John Clayton. That's why they're also popular because they're getting out there. 

Lee Ann Walling 36:39
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 36:40
They people know about 

Lee Ann Walling 36:41
mmhm. 

Rich Bennett 36:41
them. So yeah, that's they do the interviews and everything. It's important. And I got to con doc relief you for doing the one thing that is free marketing, getting on podcast. But let me rephrase that. It should be free marketing because of a podcast whose everyone's to charge you to come on their show. 

Lee Ann Walling 36:59
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 37:00
Take a hike. 

Lee Ann Walling 37:01
Yeah. I have in a couple of times. I'm like, I don't think I need that. 

Rich Bennett 37:05
You know, no. 

Lee Ann Walling 37:05
I've got my story's good enough where, and there's some of people interested in me and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. It's, it's been great. 

Rich Bennett 37:14
Oh, we're gonna be talking again because you know you're gonna, well, you got to. Podcast. Pleas you got to come on for the next book. 

Lee Ann Walling 37:21
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 37:21
And then the third book and then fourth 

Lee Ann Walling 37:23
book. 

Rich Bennett 37:24
Yeah. I see a whole, then next thing you know you can be right in a series. 

Lee Ann Walling 37:29
uh, that would be nice. Well, people ask you, you know, uh, is there going to be a sequel to this book? Uh, 'cause you know, that it ends up with a happy ending and they go somewhere 

Rich Bennett 37:38
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 37:38
they go somewhere. Uh, and I said, well, yeah, I'd, I'd love to write a sequel, but I'd have to go, you know, do a lot of research in Santa Fe because that's where 

Rich Bennett 37:46
Uh, 

Lee Ann Walling 37:46
they, that's where they end up going. And that's one of my favorite places also. Uh, so I, you know, but not enough people have read it to really demand a sequel. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 37:58
But they will, they will. Alright, so now that the book is published, what's been the biggest struggle? 

Lee Ann Walling 38:05
Uh, well, I'm so glad I discovered the podcast world because that makes 

Rich Bennett 38:10
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 38:10
me feel like I'm doing something, you know, to promote, you know, the book and the story. And, you know, just even just the writing process and, and hopefully maybe inspiring somebody else to try it the way I did it. Uh, I, you know, I'm on Instagram. I'm on Facebook. I have a, my website. I'm doing a drop in books. It's a great book club book because with the themes of the book, you know, it's an older woman. There's just, you know, spiritual dimension to it. Uh, there's, you know, loss and loneliness. And, uh, so it's kind of tailor made for the kind of folks who show up for book clubs. 

Rich Bennett 38:46
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 38:46
Uh, so I'm starting to do that. I'm doing, um, I did an event last, uh, weekend in Rehobith, which was kind of, it was part of the women's fest down there. It was just a bunch of 

Rich Bennett 38:56
Okay. 

Lee Ann Walling 38:56
us, women authors and I sold 14 books there 

Rich Bennett 38:59
Nice. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:00
on, on a Saturday, which was not, you know, and I get to keep, you know, that, that money, I get to keep all of it. So that was a 

Rich Bennett 39:06
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:06
pretty good haul, you know. 

Rich Bennett 39:08
That's one thing I've heard from a lot of authors when they go to the book fairs or whatever, that's where they end up selling most of their. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:15
Mm hmm. And I love to talk to people. I mean, I just, 

Rich Bennett 39:18
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:18
I love to talk to 

Rich Bennett 39:19
Important. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:19
people who've read the book, you know, 

Rich Bennett 39:21
Oh 

Lee Ann Walling 39:21
and 

Rich Bennett 39:21
yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:21
have questions about it. That's just. I mean, that's just my one of my favorite places to be. So 

Rich Bennett 39:27
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:28
yeah. But yeah, I'm just trying to, uh, I'm doing the podcast, right? And it's like I did a, a, a, an LGBT-focused podcast a couple of weeks ago, and that was A huge, you know, a huge hit on, 

Rich Bennett 39:43
good. 

Lee Ann Walling 39:43
on Instagram and everything. So, uh, and I, you know, I was really kind of reluctant at first to focus or to be categorized as LGBTQ. Uh, I just didn't feel like I wanted to be pigeonholed and the book's not explicit or anything. It's more about the depth of the room. Death of a friendship between death of a friendship between two older women rather than, you know, anything beyond that. So, uh, but the next one, you know, so, but I don't mind now because it's a struggle. Anybody who, you know, kind of, uh, lived through that period in the 80s and 90s and even into the 2000s, when you kind of had to have one foot in the closet and you couldn't be yourself and you had, is that your sister? No. No. It's a wear friends, you know, that period it's pretty much over now. So, yeah. So, uh, then the next book, it's going to lean into it a little bit more, you know. Yeah. Oops. Sorry, I just hit my, 

okay. 

Yeah. I'm on my laptop set up on my bathroom sink. It's a long story. 

Rich Bennett 40:54
So, so for those of you listening, can I tell them? Can I? 

Lee Ann Walling 40:57
Oh, sure. Go ahead. 

Rich Bennett 40:58
Okay. So, when Leah comes on because we can see each other her first question was, this is audio only, right? I was like, yeah, because she's sitting in her bathroom doing this. Not on the commode. 

Lee Ann Walling 41:12
Right. 

Rich Bennett 41:13
But, you know, 

Lee Ann Walling 41:14
I brought a 

Rich Bennett 41:14
it. 

Lee Ann Walling 41:14
chair 

Rich Bennett 41:15
You 

Lee Ann Walling 41:15
in 

Rich Bennett 41:15
not use it. Yes. Which I got admit this, I told her, this is the first time I know of out of over 10 years doing this first recording I've had where somebody sitting in the 

Lee Ann Walling 41:26
bed. Yeah working. 

Rich Bennett 41:28
Yeah, 

Lee Ann Walling 41:28
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 41:29
working in the bathroom. 

Lee Ann Walling 41:30
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 41:31
I have to ask you this. How did you come up with the title? 

Lee Ann Walling 41:35
The Solon Light Express. 

Rich Bennett 41:36
Yes. 

Lee Ann Walling 41:56
The Solon Light Express. That's where the name comes from. 

Rich Bennett 41:59
Are you still don't want to get a camper? 

Lee Ann Walling 42:02
I want one. uh, Sue. My partner is, 

Rich Bennett 42:05
she does it. 

Lee Ann Walling 42:06
not interested. 

Rich Bennett 42:07
She's 

Lee Ann Walling 42:07
So that's, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 42:09
Go ahead. 

Lee Ann Walling 42:09
Go ahead. What do you 

Rich Bennett 42:11
say? Was she the first one to read the book when it was 

Lee Ann Walling 42:14
She 

Rich Bennett 42:14
finished? 

Lee Ann Walling 42:14
was like the last one to read the book. 

Because she knew what it was about. 

Rich Bennett 42:21
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 42:21
It was very wary of, you know, reading about, uh, this person, you know, getting killed in an accident, uh, because they were, you know, one of them wasn't paying attention. I was filling with the radio because that happened as more than it should 

Rich Bennett 42:34
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 42:34
when we're out driving around. So, uh, yeah, she was one of the last people to read it. 

Rich Bennett 42:40
Who was the first one besides 

Lee Ann Walling 42:42
The first. 

Rich Bennett 42:42
yourself? 

Lee Ann Walling 42:43
The first one was a, a classmate, uh, Adrian. Uh, she's, you know, my about my age and she liked the, you know, she, we just talked about it in class and she liked the theme. So she was the first person to read it all the way through and,you  know, I was really nervous because no other human being, other than my, you know, professor had, had looked at it. And I just, I wanted to know, is there a story there. And she was incredibly supportive and said, absolutely, there's a story there. And, you know, she gave me a few very constructive, you know, uh, and she's trying to write a book too. So I'm trying to, you know, be there for her as 

Rich Bennett 43:21
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 43:21
well. Uh, it's, it's mutually helpful, you know, with authors, hopefully helping each other, you know, get over the hopes of writing and publishing. So yeah, she was the first. And then because of the spiritual themes in the book, I had my former priest, my former Piscopal priest, she read it and her husband read it just to make sure that I, you know, hit all the references. Okay, 

Rich Bennett 43:45
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 43:46
you know, uh, and, you know, like, she pointed one, I had a quote in there for what I thought was the gospel of John and she said, no, that's first John, you know, said little things like that. Uh, so there's not a lot of that in there, but there's enough to where you want somebody to kind of check it for you and make that 

Rich Bennett 44:02
sure 

Lee Ann Walling 44:03
you're accurate. 

Rich Bennett 44:04
Important. 

Lee Ann Walling 44:04
Uh, yeah. I mean, because what, I mean, one of the things that she struggles with throughout the book, you know, just because of this accident is, is mindfulness and like being in the moment. And, uh, you know, centering herself and, you know, there's a practice, a spiritual practice called centering prayer where you just really kind of empty out your head. And, 

Rich Bennett 44:23
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 44:24
and you might have a little mantra. You go back to if you get distracted, but she struggled with that throughout the book and wouldn't like always fall asleep or just kind of forget to do it and things like that. And the book she was pretty good at it. So it did, you know, there was a little bit, one of the themes in there is kind of a spiritual waking up sort of thing and being more in touch with yourself, you know, and just being more in the moment that's so important. I mean, 

Rich Bennett 44:49
O, yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 44:49
especially these days, people just aren't. They're either thinking about, you know, they're not listening. 

Rich Bennett 44:55
It's rush rush rush rush. 

Lee Ann Walling 44:56
Yeah, that's another reason I like podcast because we kind of listen to each other. I have to listen to you or I'll flood the question that you ask me, you know. 

So, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:08
Thank you just threw me off. I was getting ready to answer something that threw 

Lee Ann Walling 45:12
Uh 

Rich Bennett 45:12
me off completely. Oh, God, what was it? 

Lee Ann Walling 45:14
oh. 

Rich Bennett 45:15
Oh. Now anyway, God, I can't remember now. See you threw me off. 

Lee Ann Walling 45:21
I'm sorry. 

Rich Bennett 45:22
That's okay. Um, actually, I do want to ask you this and this is something I haven't asked an author in a long time, but I think it's important because of your background and this being your first novel. What bits of advice do you have for any inspiring young authors that want to write a novel or any type of book? Well, let's stick with novel because, 

Lee Ann Walling 45:49
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:50
They're different, yeah. Poetry and all that can be completely different. 

Lee Ann Walling 45:54
Well, you just you have to pay attention. You have to listen to people. You have to observe people, especially if you're younger, you know, like I have all these stored up experiences. I was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago and they were young a lot younger than me. And we were that the theme was my kind of my age and writing a book 

Rich Bennett 46:12
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 46:12
at 69 and all that stuff. So this was when the Artemis was happening, you know, 

Rich Bennett 46:18
oh, 

Lee Ann Walling 46:19
So don't tell me you remember the moon landing. 

Rich Bennett 46:22
yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 46:23
I was babysitting in Irving, Texas. Yeah, I remember exactly where I was during that evening. And then it was a Saturday. I'm pretty sure. And then he's like, how about the Kennedy assassination? I'm like, yeah, it was in a brownie troop on a Friday afternoon. So I mean, you know, somebody who's younger and wants to write, 

Rich Bennett 46:44
Oh, 

Lee Ann Walling 46:45
they don't have those, just those stored up life experiences. So I would definitely keep a journal, you know, and just write down 

Rich Bennett 46:53
yes. 

Lee Ann Walling 46:53
things that I see and write down impressions of people and and just kind of take stock of everything you see around you. I'm not sure that they'd listen to me because a lot of people at that age and I did too thought I knew it all. But, you know, I went to my first, my first month of college was August of 1974, which was a year that are the month that Nixon resigned. 

Rich Bennett 47:19
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 47:19
You know, so I was, that's how old I am and I wanted to be 

Rich Bennett 47:22
It's 

Lee Ann Walling 47:22
a jerk. 

Rich Bennett 47:22
a young you all. 

Lee Ann Walling 47:24
Yeah, and that's I wanted to be a journal, you know, everybody wanted to be a journalist back then and be Woodward in Bernstein and when it pull its surprise. So and work for the Washington Post. That was my, you know, that didn't turn out that way. But, uh, so, you know, I thought I knew it all, I thought that wasn't going to be a problem, just like when I graduated from the MFA program, I thought, yeah, sure, I'll get an agent. Ha, you know, so you just have to be ready to pivot. And you have to be, yeah, 

Rich Bennett 47:50
I'm sorry, good. 

Lee Ann Walling 47:51
you have to be like willing to reinvent yourself. I 

Rich Bennett 47:54
And 

Lee Ann Walling 47:54
mean, it's hard to say that to a 22-year-old, but I've been, I've reinvented myself, you know, several times over the decades. 

Rich Bennett 48:02
Yeah. Because a 22-year-old's still trying to learn themselves. 

Lee Ann Walling 48:05
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:05
Yeah. He's still trying to figure out who they are, what they wouldn't do. 

Lee Ann Walling 48:08
Right. 

Rich Bennett 48:08
Well, I mean, and let's go back to even your younger self. Did you ever think that you would be an author per-nor? 

Lee Ann Walling 48:16
Uh, no, I didn't even know what that was. 

Rich Bennett 48:19
An author. 

Lee Ann Walling 48:20
Yeah, no. No, I know what it is now. 

Rich Bennett 48:23
Okay. 

Lee Ann Walling 48:24
Back Yeah. I mean, you know, back then it was all, you know, traditional. You 

Rich Bennett 48:28
then. 

Lee Ann Walling 48:28
got an agent, you, I mean, I didn't even even know this stuff back then. But, 

Rich Bennett 48:31
there 

Lee Ann Walling 48:33
was only one way to get a book published, unless you were a real, you like a real Charlotteson, and just, you know, public, I mean, there wasn't even an Amazon, you know, to upload your book to. I mean, it's 

Rich Bennett 48:46
know, 

Lee Ann Walling 48:46
incredible. And that's kind of where I'm coming from. It's just want. You have to do your, you have to, you want a professional product. So you don't want to just upload some schlocky thing to Amazon, you know. You don't want your cousin designing your cover in Canva, or you doing it in AI. I mean, there's just some things you can't take 

Rich Bennett 49:04
that you don't 

Lee Ann Walling 49:05
shortcuts on. 

Rich Bennett 49:06
You don't want AI to write the book for you either. 

Lee Ann Walling 49:09
God, no, I mean, research, me using it for research is like the first time I've Yeah, even cross paths with AI, which I don't feel like I don't feel guilty about that, because that just frees me up to right, you know. 

Rich Bennett 49:21
Yeah, it does. 

Lee Ann Walling 49:21
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 49:22
it's, it's like having that your own assistant, 

Lee Ann Walling 49:25
um, 

Rich Bennett 49:26
which is 

Lee Ann Walling 49:27
man, 

Rich Bennett 49:27
important. I mean, 

Lee Ann Walling 49:28
yeah, 

Rich Bennett 49:28
oh, yeah, I mean, I know it really wasn't around when I started to podcast, but I use it all the time now. You know, it helps with the show when I finish a podcast and I transcribe it. I can just upload that transcription right into AI and it helps me with the show notes and everything. 

Lee Ann Walling 49:47
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:48
So much 

Lee Ann Walling 49:49
Yeah. Yeah, and that's not, that's not hurting any originality. It, I mean, it happened. We're here talking about it. 

Rich Bennett 49:55
easier. 

Lee Ann Walling 49:55
So it's not like we made it up, you mean up our conversation? Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 49:59
no, it's been around forever. 

right. So before I get to my last question, something very important. 

Lee Ann Walling 50:09
All 

Rich Bennett 50:09
Tell everybody where they can find the book. 

Lee Ann Walling 50:11
You can, well, one place 

Rich Bennett 50:13
and follow you. 

Lee Ann Walling 50:14
Yeah, I'm on, uh, I'm Lee Ann Walling author on Facebook. I have a website LeeAnWalling.com, but you can, if you are on Barnes and Noble or Amazon or Audible or in a library, a mini library is not every single library. You can find my book because it's, it's basically universally available anywhere. It's just like any other, you know, novel that's traditionally published, the, the route I took you can find it anywhere. So I invite you to take a look. I think it's, yes, it's, it's available in the Kindle or E-Pum version. It's available in an audiobook version, which is really good. I got the, there's a lot of different voices in the book and the person 

Rich Bennett 51:00
good 

Lee Ann Walling 51:00
who was a narrator did a fantastic job, uh, you know, br these people to life. So that's, that's one way to do it. And I consider that, you know, there's this big debate as an audiobook really, really reading a book. Absolutely. I think so. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 51:14
me and my daughter getting that argument. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:16
Yeah. Really? Yeah. I think it is. 

Rich Bennett 51:18
What are you going to tell me, blind people can't read? 

Lee Ann Walling 51:21
Right. Yeah. So, 

Rich Bennett 51:22
well, yeah, it's braille. I said, not all books come in brand. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:24
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 51:25
said, 

Lee Ann Walling 51:26
I 

Rich Bennett 51:26
your books not in braille. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:28
No, not yet. 

Rich Bennett 51:29
But yeah, but all, see, with all your versions, you're still, it's still sinking in. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:35
Hopefully. 

Rich Bennett 51:36
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:36
I mean, it took me a while to used to that, you know, I'd be driving along and I'd realized I'd missed two minutes of the book and handed. But I'm getting I'm much better now at 

Rich Bennett 51:45
yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:46
Following along in an audio 

Rich Bennett 51:47
Well, it's because you're paying attention to the roadly 

Lee Ann Walling 51:49
book. 

Rich Bennett 51:50
answer. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:50
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 51:50
That's important. 

Lee Ann Walling 51:51
Yeah. Are my super rules a little, scream at me. Keep your eyes on the road. 

Rich Bennett 51:56
It's something else I want to add about far as following you because a lot of authors don't know this and I found this out. Follow her on Amazon. There's a little follow button because this way, people, when she releases her next novel, you'll get a notification. Let you know that the new book is out or even if she's on doing pre-order. 

Lee Ann Walling 52:19
But first, feel free to read the first one. 

Rich Bennett 52:22
Yeah. Yeah. And so those of you listening, you know what I'm going to say? When you purchase the salt and light express from alien. And no matter where you get it from, make sure you leave a for review everywhere that you can. 

Lee Ann Walling 52:38
That's very helpful. 

Rich Bennett 52:40
And 

Lee Ann Walling 52:40
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 52:41
then purchase copies for other people. Don't pay 

Lee Ann Walling 52:44
It's 

Rich Bennett 52:44
us. 

Lee Ann Walling 52:44
a great gift. 

Rich Bennett 52:45
It does. And one of the things I found out, especially if this younger generation, they don't like to get rid of their books. 

Lee Ann Walling 52:52
Really? 

Rich Bennett 52:52
Because oh, yeah. Oh, my daughter says a ton of books. And no, because they'll read them over again. I mean, think about how many books have you read more than once? 

Lee Ann Walling 53:01
The only books I've read more than once are the fellowship of the ring. Trilogy, you know, the trilogy by Tolkien. 

Rich Bennett 53:07
Oh, really? 

Lee Ann Walling 53:07
Yeah. It's the only thing I've read more than once. I've never read a book twice other than that. Yep. 

Rich Bennett 53:13
See, and I think, I don't know 

Lee Ann Walling 53:15
it is. 

Rich Bennett 53:15
what 

Lee Ann Walling 53:15
There's too many books out there, man. 

Rich Bennett 53:16
There are, but how many times have you watched a movie more than once? 

Lee Ann Walling 53:21
Everyone's in the oil. I've what? 

Rich Bennett 53:25
That's the question I was going to ask you. Now I'm going to put you on the spot. 

Lee Ann Walling 53:28
Oh, okay. 

Rich Bennett 53:29
Do you see, let me probably let me, God. 

Lee Ann Walling 53:35
Charlize, they're on. 

Rich Bennett 53:38
No. Oh, okay. No, I was going to ask you. Ask if you see this being good enough to become a movie or a see like on TV series or whatever they. 

Lee Ann Walling 53:48
Yeah. You know what? If there's so much interiority in the book where she's, you know, she's by herself a lot. And I finally gave a cat in the book because she was, you know, or she was going to look like a crazy lady after a while. You know, so I would not be, my feelings would not be heard if, you know, some Hollywood producer wasn't interested in turning it into a movie because I would be afraid of what they do with it. You know, because there's a lot of internal stuff going on. 

Rich Bennett 54:18
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 54:19
And Lord knows what they would, you know, if they want something that would be appealing to a mass audience, it's probably not this book. I mean, it's a, it's a niche book. It's for, I mean, the best audiences are older women who, you know, are a little bit adventurous. 

Rich Bennett 54:37
Right. 

Lee Ann Walling 54:38
You definitely don't have to be gay to understand, you know, what happens when you get older. And, you know, you would like to have a friend and you're lonely, you know, so that's probably the primary audience. That's why it's such a great book club book, you know. 

Rich Bennett 54:52
See that, I love that answer because not every novel can become a good movie. 

Lee Ann Walling 54:58
that's all right. I don't think 

Rich Bennett 54:59
I 

Lee Ann Walling 54:59
this 

Rich Bennett 54:59
mean, 

Lee Ann Walling 54:59
one could. 

Rich Bennett 55:00
I remember Tuesdays with Morning, I saw the movie first and the book blew the movie away. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:07
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 55:07
It's the first book that I read that it made me cry. I didn't cry during the movie when I read the book, I cried. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:12
It's been a while since I read that, 

Rich Bennett 55:16
Yeah. Oh, God. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:16
but yeah. 

Rich Bennett 55:17
I love all his books. And the other one, the five people you meet in heaven. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:22
Right. 

Rich Bennett 55:23
Have you 

Lee Ann Walling 55:23
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 55:23
seen or read that? 

Lee Ann Walling 55:26
Sue has. Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 55:27
No, 

Lee Ann Walling 55:27
she loved it. Yeah, absolutely loved 

Rich Bennett 55:29
Oh, 

Lee Ann Walling 55:29
it. 

Rich Bennett 55:30
God. Anyways, now, I'm sorry, Mitch, we're giving you plugs. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:33
Anyway. 

Rich Bennett 55:34
So is there anything you would like to add before I get to my last question? 

Lee Ann Walling 55:39
Oh, no. What's your last question, Rich? 

Rich Bennett 55:41
I don't, I don't know. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:42
Oh, 

Rich Bennett 55:43
Because 

Lee Ann Walling 55:43
okay. 

Rich Bennett 55:43
you're going to, you're going to have to pick it. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:45
You want to know, you want to know what I'm working on with my next book is "Biny Chance". No. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 55:51
Well, you already told us, didn't you? 

Lee Ann Walling 55:52
No, I didn't. 

Rich Bennett 55:54
Oh, what an going 

Lee Ann Walling 55:55
Okay! 

Rich Bennett 55:56
head. 

Lee Ann Walling 55:57
The next book is called, uh, is called the next right thing, and that's kind of, you know, there's, uh, it's an AA saying, you know, uh, yeah, just focus on doing the next right thing, you know, if you don't, if you're, uh, 

Rich Bennett 56:16
yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 56:22
was Chris in the Salt Mighty's Press, but she lives in Philadelphia and she grew up in Texas and she finds out that her her beloved journalism teacher from Texas is dying and he's asked to see the group of friends that she hung out with in high school. So they haven't seen each other for 40 years and they reunite or you know to to to be with this dying teacher and there's all kinds of baggage you know that has gone unchecked from over those 40 years and and she herself is in the kind of an existential crisis in her own relationship. So and then they help him solve a mystery that's been tormenting him for 40 years. So there's a lot going on in this one too and I can't wait I just I'm really thrilled about it. I just think there's it's kind of a maturing process I feel like it's a little bit more mature than 

Rich Bennett 57:19
it 

Lee Ann Walling 57:20
has more suspense than the Salt Light Express. Yeah and there's just some there's like several huge scenes in this book where in the Salt Light Express there were a couple of huge scenes so I feel like I've layered it on a little more thickly, you know. So I'm hoping that will know I'm you know in the process of revising it and then I'll send it out to some of my beta reader friends and hopefully get it out there by early next year but that's that's my tentative title is the next right thing. 

Rich Bennett 57:52
How many books do you think you're gonna have done in the next five years? 

Lee Ann Walling 57:56
probably have like two more in me. I've kind of like written down some ideas for a couple more, a political one and you know this doesn't sound very sexy but I was a land-use planner and and I know this doesn't sound sexy at all but it's really interesting you know what goes on in these small towns where 

Rich Bennett 58:19
I 

Lee Ann Walling 58:20
I where I did some work you know in some small towns in Delaware and there's just a lot of good stuff, good juicy stuff that goes on in these towns and I want to dive into it at some point. 

Rich Bennett 58:33
I just love the fact that you're trying to make it sound sexy. 

Lee Ann Walling 58:38
Yeah the juicy land-use planing stuff. 

That'll be a challenge yeah. 

Rich Bennett 58:47
All right so Leanne, here's how this works. I need you to pick number between one and five. 

Lee Ann Walling 58:54
Okay. 

Oh all right 

Rich Bennett 58:58
Number four. 

Lee Ann Walling 58:59
four. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 58:59
All right now I need you to pick a number between 61 and 80. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:07
72. 

Rich Bennett 59:10
72. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:11
Why 72? I guess 

Rich Bennett 59:12
know. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:12
I don't 

Rich Bennett 59:12
Oh good. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:14
I like I guess I even numbers 

Rich Bennett 59:18
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:18
72. 

Rich Bennett 59:19
This is a good question and goes before we've been talking about it in a way. If you could witness any historical event first hand which one would it be? 

Lee Ann Walling 59:34
What's I got to do with 472 but okay let me think. 

Rich Bennett 59:37
Oh because I got I have a hundred different questions. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:43
Okay. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 59:44
Yeah. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:46
Oh god is this like crazy? I like to be around some civil war battle like well out of the 

Rich Bennett 59:54
No way. 

Lee Ann Walling 59:54
well out of the line of fire. I'm a civil war buff so you know maybe third day of Gettysburg 

Rich Bennett 1:00:00
Charles. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:00:00
pickens Yeah. I'd like to be somewhere off of the somewhere out of side of cemetery Ridge or seminary hill or whatever. I can't remember. Cemetery Hill Cemetery Ridge. I've been there several times yeah and taking a lot of pictures and I would definitely like to there for that. That would be hard to watch though you know. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:22
Oh yeah. I love going there. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:00:24
Yeah it's amazing. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:25
Love. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:00:26
Not too far from you. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:28
No. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:00:28
You know. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:28
No. Oh my god. I don't know. Now we don't do the ghost tours but we'll go in there ourselves looking for stuff and some of the things that we picked up on cameras. Mine. Bogland. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:00:44
Wow. Really? 

Rich Bennett 1:00:45
The things we've seen in person too that weren't really there is pretty that in heartors fairy and auntie. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:00:52
Oh yeah, that's like the triumvirate or the triangulating, that area is just amazing. Yeah, Harper's Fairy. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:03
I can see you right in the fiction book about the Civil War. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:01:07
Maybe I can do that. That would require a lot of research. I'd have to turn up my perplexity for suppression. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:13
The research fun. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:01:15
Yeah, it is fun. It is, but it's fun. Oh yeah, I've always thought I would love to get a, you know, degree in American Civil War history or something like that. That ship is sailed. That's not happening now, but I love the Civil War. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:27
oh me too, 

Lee Ann Walling 1:01:27
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:28
me too. Well, Leanne, I want to thank you so much and there's a few listening. Again, Anthony purchased her books. Make book. Oh, it's soon about to be booked. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:01:40
Hopefully, 

Rich Bennett 1:01:40
Make sure you leave a full review on Amazon Goodreads, Partners in Noble, everywhere you can leave reviews and buy copies for other people. And Leanne, you know the doors open because you got to come back on again. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:01:51
Oh, I will. I've had a lot of fun. It's 

Rich Bennett 1:01:53
great 

Lee Ann Walling 1:01:54
conversation. Thank you so much. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:55
Well, thank you. And now for the bright side, you can get out of the bathroom. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:02:02
Yeah, 

the washing machine was making too much noise. That's why I'm in the bathroom with two doors closed between 

Rich Bennett 1:02:09
wall. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:02:09
me and the I did not have to shut it off. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:14
Hey, we're not hearing it anymore. We're 

Lee Ann Walling 1:02:15
No, 

Rich Bennett 1:02:15
not. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:02:15
it's not. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:16
That's good. Yeah, so we're good. Thanks, Leanne. 

Lee Ann Walling 1:02:19
All right. Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:20
I think one of the things that really stood out to me today is that Leanne's story isn't just about writing a novel. It's about having the courage to start something new when a lot of people think it's too late. Here is someone who reinvented herself multiple times she had her light. Went back to school and her late 60s to earn her MFA and then published her debut novel at 69. That's a reminder that there is no expiration date on pursuing a dream. And the salt and the light express is much more than a road trip story. It's about grief, healing, friendship, faith, community, second chances and what happens when we let go of our assumptions and truly connect with other people. It's also a reminder that even in our darkest moments there can still be hoop waiting around next bend in the road. If today's conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to pick up a copy of the salt and light express. Whether you read it yourself, listen to the audiobook or share it with someone who may need its message. I think you'll find something meaningful in its pages and when you do, please leave a review. Reviews help authors likely and reach new readers and continue telling the stories that matter and you'll find links to Leanne's website in the book and the share notes. As always, thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting our guests and our sponsors and thank you for being part of these conversations. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other and remember, sometimes the next chapter of your life begins with simply taking the next right step.