When Silence Hurts: The Urgent Need For Honest, Healing Conversations

Producer 0:01
Coming to you live from Edgewood American Legion, post-17, Hartford County Living presents, Conversations with Rich Bennett. 

Rich Bennett 0:29
Some of you may know, I am President of the Joppatowne Lions Club. I've been in the Joppatowne Lions Club for I believe 26 years now. And one of the things that Lions International was asking clubs to do was to raise awareness on mental health and well-being. So I decided, well, I brought it up to the club. So why don't we do a panel. A live panel will bring on experts, have them talk about mental health, and this way people in the audience can ask questions. So that's what we've decided to do, but then I decided, let's take it even a step further. This way, we can raise awareness with just, you know, more people than what is there to see the panel. So I decided to record the live panel and turn it into a podcast episode. Now I'm going to bless you all because I am not hosting it. I actually have Ronya Nassar from the Harford County Health Department as the moderator. Listen up because there was some great, great things brought up about mental health. And we also talked about being the one who is taking place at Edgewood American Legion. So we talked about the Be the One program, which is something that has going through American Legion right now to help with people that are going through some type of mental illness. You know and to prevent to bring the number of suicides down, you've heard 22 a day. Now, lest I check it down to 17 and a half a day. But that's still way too many. I'm talking just veterans, not suicide in general. So hopefully you enjoy it. And after you finish listening, please either email me or join the Facebook group and leave comments. And if there's any questions that you have, feel free to ask. And if I can't answer it, I'm sure one of the experts will be able to

Nolanda Robert 2:39
And that's our comprehensive 

Ronya Nassar 2:41
pop. 

Nolanda Robert 2:41
population health. 

Ronya Nassar 2:43
Start the Harford County Health Department and also 

Michael Watts 2:45
friend 

Ronya Nassar 2:45
a of Rich Bennett. 

And I'm really excited to be moderating this, this podcast today 

Jennifer Redding 2:57
and such. 

Ronya Nassar 2:58
I want 

Laura Crowder 2:59
to 

Ronya Nassar 3:00
start off by 

Laura Crowder 3:01
having all 

Ronya Nassar 3:01
panel members, just go around, introduce yourself and just let me know a little bit about your. And to mental 

Wendy Beck 3:07
health. 

Jennifer Redding 3:10
Hi there, so glad to see you all. My name is Jennifer Reading. I was joking with Rania. I've worn many hats over the past 30 years. More recently, I have a practice here in the county that I create it back in 2009 called Hartford Counseling short of a year ago. But over saw the behavioral health department for University Marlene Upper Chesapeake Health, so both hospitals, as well as the Klein Family Crisis Center were under my guidance. So I'm excited to be here. I really, really strive hard to break down stigma when it comes to mental health and mental illness because we all are impacted and we all need to talk about it. So thank you guys. 

Laura Crowder 3:57
My name is Laura Crowder. I'm the COO and clinical director of Peace Healthcare Incorporated. And I'm also the owner of Elemental Health and Wellness Associates. I'm an LCPC, which is a mental health counselor. And I've been working in the mental health field since I was in high school. I believe it's deeply needed and very much underserved. 

Wendy Beck 4:22
Hi, everybody, I'm Wendy Beck from Rage Against Addiction. I'm the founder and executive director. And we have sober living houses for women. So there is a very deep connection between addiction and mental health. And I am a witness to it all the time. And I just wanted to be here to support this group and insert some of my expertise just by running the houses. 

Nolanda Robert 4:47
And my name is Nualanda Robert. I own, uh, Chadenadalescent Mental Health Practice, Voice of a Child, um, LLC. I have 30 plus years of experience. I've worked with foster care children, um, juvenile offenders. I was a behavioral therapist for the University of Maryland in Baltimore City Schools. And then I took an 18-year stint overseeing family court in which I thought that would be easy, but it was full of mental health and substance abuse issues that caused a lot of, uh, divorce and custody disputes. Um, and I opened my practice in 2023 in Hartford County. And I'm getting all cases that deal with family court issues, um, because the judges are knowing that I am out there now officially here. 

Michael Watts 5:34
Hello, everyone. My name is Michael Watts. I am the, uh, state chairman for Be the One for the State of Maryland. Uh, Be the One program is a program that was put together about four years ago with the American Legion National Operation. Uh, my job as a state chairman is to assist the various posts around the state. There's approximately 2000 of them. And we are there to assist these veterans, uh, from committing suicide. We're losing 22 veterans a day. Uh, to giving an example we have lost in the last 10 years, 80,000 veterans from suicide. We lost 56,000 in Vietnam war. So that kind of gives you a little bit of comparison. Um, my job is is to work with, uh, veterans both active and inactive veterans and to assist them in getting the proper care that they need through these people that you see in front of you mental health. Uh, the VA has been, uh, somewhat, uh, uh, uh, laxedadial and the, uh, helping of veterans over the years. That has recently changed by Congress 116th Congress that made some changes to the VA. Uh, veterans now, 

Wendy Beck 6:45
uh, 

Michael Watts 6:46
medical facility 

Wendy Beck 6:46
country, 

Michael Watts 6:46
in the 

Wendy Beck 6:48
uh, experience 

Michael Watts 6:49
in suicide issues and they can get the bills paid for by the VA, which was not a 

Wendy Beck 6:54
before. 

Michael Watts 6:54
case Uh, to give you 

Wendy Beck 6:57
Peterson, 

Michael Watts 6:58
veteran was feeling suicidal, uh, they would need to call the VA hospital. As you may well know, a lot of veterans do not participate in the VA hospitals or the VA for that matter. Uh, if they did call the VA, they would get, uh, notification that sometimes it would be 30 to 90 days before they could get an appointment with suicide with a veteran. You've got, uh, when they make that call, you've got about an hour. And so you have to move very quickly. So I'm here tonight to talk about that. 

Ronya Nassar 7:27
Thank you. Thank you all so much for those introductions. Um, we're going to go right into our questions for today. So I, I want to, 

Jennifer Redding 7:36
I 

Ronya Nassar 7:36
I really 

Jennifer Redding 7:36
really want 

Ronya Nassar 7:37
to 

Jennifer Redding 7:37
to start, 

Ronya Nassar 7:37
start off with, with this first question because I really want us to kind of set the stage for a discussion for mental health. So I really want to ask you all from your perspective, 

Nolanda Robert 7:46
uh, 

Ronya Nassar 7:47
what do you see our, some of our biggest misconceptions about mental health that you still see today? 

Laura Crowder 7:57
Do you want us to go down the road, or just, 

Nolanda Robert 7:58
uh, 

Ronya Nassar 8:00
prefer it. Not 

Wendy Beck 8:05
knows 

Ronya Nassar 8:06
everybody 

Wendy Beck 8:08
about the fear. 

Laura Crowder 8:10
So I find that among the biggest misconceptions about mental health are the ideas that a) either a person is putting on or b) that they're really dangerous. And your average person who's dealing with mental health issues is very much a regular person. They're not going to hurt anyone. And they're not putting on. They really genuinely need help. 

Nolanda Robert 8:36
And to kind of dovetail off that. Um, sometimes people in, in all of my careers believe that having a mental health diagnosis is a weakness or having poor character and, um, and that that would be the reasoning why people won't like them or why they can't have their child in custody or things like that. Um, but the other thing is that the misconception is that mental health, um, and physical health are two separate things. And mental health causes some of the physical health. And, um, I do that a lot of training with my, um, my children that I see because they're like, they have stomach aches and different ailments that really are a factor of their stress and anxiety. 

Michael Watts 9:25
My experience with mental health issues is kind of an interesting scenario. Active military, um, if the issue comes up about mental health, there's a high probability that they will face some issues in their careers. In addition to that, mental health issues, if they're retired is a veteran. A lot of veterans have experienced PSTD, and they are experiencing things that most of us do not have experience and dealing with. So when it comes to relationships and marriage where there are children involved, a veteran, rather be a female or a male veteran who's experienced in post trauma from serving in a war zone, many times end up losing their family. They lose their spouses, they lose their job, and eventually they lose their children's visitation rights, simply because people do not understand the issues of mental health, especially from a veteran standpoint when they've served into a war zone. I've been involved now with a veteran suicide for about 23 years, and the stories I've heard are just mind boggling, and I can see how it affects people, and the stigma that comes with mental health issues. 

Jennifer Redding 10:43
And just to chime in, I think everyone really covered a lot of the things, but two pieces that sort of stick out for me. I do a lot of work with first responders, law enforcement, servicemen and women, and so really hitting home that any sort of mental health issue, the misconception is that it is not a sign of weakness. You can imagine as a first responder, as a serviceman or woman, you have to have your armor on, essentially, all the time. And so it's really hard to sort of raise your hand and say, "You know what, I'm really having a tough time with this." When you take the time to think about all of the experiences that our first responders and our military men and women have been exposed to, it's not hard to understand that that's going to have an impact on you. And so really fighting that stigma. And then the final piece is that oftentimes whenever any of us have sort of a mental health issue of any kind, sometimes it feels very isolating and very alone, and we think, you know, what's wrong with me, I must be the only person experiencing this. And I think the thing that you're going to hear throughout our talks tonight is that you are not alone. And I just say it over and over and over again. There's tons of people out here that want to support folks, and there's lots of help out there. And so we hope to spread that word. 

Wendy Beck 12:07
I'd like to add a little bit to that. What I'm noticing in the recovery community, when someone comes into sober living, they are new in recovery, and they are also, I guess, in jeopardy of having mental health issues that may not be treated or not being able to be handled by the staff or being a peer in the house or being a resident, you know, we have the responsibility to get them to get involved in the program, but there's a lot of mental health things that are going on that we are not necessarily trained for. So when we come up to a situation like that, I think one of the hardest things is finding them a place to go. 

Ronya Nassar 12:54
That's great. So we, have discussed, there's not just one or two misconceptions. We do have a wide variety of misconceptions, and that's all part of different areas in mental health that we're discussing. We talked about family, we talked about friends, and so this is a great like lead in to the next question, so we have family, we have friends we care about. We want to start having that conversation around mental health with them, so how do we approach these conversations with people that 

Laura Crowder 13:25
we 

Ronya Nassar 13:25
we see might be resistant, or just afraid to seek help? 

Jennifer Redding 13:32
I think Nalanda touched on something that speaks to this question for me and it's understanding the connection between physical health and mental health. And so when someone is having a hard time understanding or acknowledging their need for support, it's sort of making the analogy. If you were to break your arm, you're not going to hesitate to go to the doctor and get it set and get it fixed. If you have diabetes, you're not going to hopefully, you know, hesitate to go to the doctor and get on whatever medication you need to get physically healthy again. The same can be said for mental health, you know. I think what gets tough is that it's often invisible. You know, lots of folks think it's just in their head. You hear that a lot. But, you know, I think for me, the message too, is that, and this is something we can all do in this room, is just connect and listen. You don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to have it figured out, but it's listening, because that's one of the biggest things research shows, you know, even I'm a therapist by training, but even more than therapy, having that connection and feeling like someone understands or is trying to understand has such an important impact. So, that's what I would encourage you to do. 

Michael Watts 14:48
would like to pick up on that in 

Ronya Nassar 14:50
Yeah. 

Michael Watts 14:50
terms of communication, a lot of veterans, because again, I deal with veterans. The communication is breaking down with veterans. Simply because you can have a veteran and a non-veteran, especially an environment like this where you have American Legion, you have what's called Sons of American Legion, and some of those haven't actually served in active duty. And then you have the Legionnaires who have actually served in active duty, so they have two different experiences in the military and the civilian life. And dealing with a military person who has served in the war zone, their perspective of how 

Nolanda Robert 15:28
I 

Michael Watts 15:29
they talk to somebody is quite different than a civilian would have. They feel more comfortable having a conversation with somebody who's for lack of another term who's been in the ditch with them. They're going to have a more difficult time sitting down and talking to a civilian about time they've served in the military. I know I've been involved with several, I hate to say, suicides that have happened in the military, and the common thread in that is is that they felt like they couldn't reach out and talk to anybody because nobody understood what they were trying to say. So I think mental health is a multitude of levels and different such as the police and the fire in the military, people that are homeless, people that have lost jobs, there's a whole spectrum of issues with mental health and there's no cookie cutter answer to any of those. But the key, the common thread with it is people being comfortable feeling that they can actually reach out to somebody and somebody will understand what they're trying to get across and being able to help them do that. 

Nolanda Robert 16:37
And I'm going to add the word fear. Fear is one of the biggest reasons that individuals do not enter into mental health. There's stigma, fear of judgment, and also fear of change. And when I say fear of change is when you're going to seek mental health and you're working with a therapist, you're also working on what's going on internally and you're bringing up things that you have kept down so low that you start having to look at yourself in the mirror. And that is very hard for individuals. I work a lot with children and their fear is more of a judgment like, I don't want my classmate to know I'm in therapy, I don't want anyone to know, it used to be unfortunately a lot of my kids, I did this for years, and they used to be like, I don't want to be identified as crazy. And I'm like, it's not crazy for you to get help. What is crazy is if you don't get help. And I'm here to help you feel better about yourself. And so taking away that even that word crazy out of the stigma of mental health took a lot and I'm glad that nobody really uses that term anymore. They use like getting treated, working on themselves, there's all different terms that I'm hearing. So I think that's helping individuals kind of take away some of that fear. 

Ronya Nassar 18:03
I think wording is so important and how you use those words is one of the first steps to mental health. 

Nolanda Robert 18:09
So, 

Ronya Nassar 18:09
we do need to kind of take a step back sometimes and look at certain words that we use nowadays, the framework basically. Like, how do we use it? words when we have these conversations with people to kinda help with, you know, starting that conversation. I think it's really important. It's not even just for mental health, for health in general. Um, how are we using certain words? 

Jennifer Redding 18:48
your brain's listening. So words really do make a difference, even for yourself. 

Ronya Nassar 18:54
And I want to touch a little bit on something quickly that mentioned about other individuals, not understanding and experiencing and I know Wendy will back me up on this situation. But having those peers, especially we know peer recovery specialist, how important they are in the field of addiction and in mental health too. But having those peers, be around you. I mean, it's in mental health, the sense of community is so crucial. We talk a lot in public health about social determinants of health. And one of those social determinants health is one of those aspects is community. 

Jennifer Redding 19:29
you 

Ronya Nassar 19:29
And if you don't have that strong community. it's really going to determine how well your health indicators are going to be. So I think it is so important that we continue to these individuals who have experienced certain things to kind of make sure that we build that sense of community with them so that they have these conversations. We see it work so well in with peer recovery specialist and how amazing they are. And what they've gone through and how they've, you know, are in recovery and how they're starting to help individuals get into recovery as well. And that same aspect holds, I think, in mental health. So I think bringing that up is is really, really important. 

Michael Watts 20:04
And that's that's kind of where we at the American Legion dealing with veterans, we are training our facilities to not be a counselor or a therapist or a psychiatrist. That's not what we're in the business to do. We are a sounding board for these individuals to come in feel comfortable being being able to talk to somebody whose appear or even somebody who understands. And then being able to listen, listen is the key element in any of this. If they don't think you're listening, they don't want to talk to you. And then once once we teach our veteran, our members of the American Legion, how to listen, then we can point them in the right direction to get the help they need from professionals. And that's the key is listening and train our members of the American Legion to do. 

Ronya Nassar 20:54
I mean, your first, first you are a friend, and that's the most important part. And so when I, when I'm having conversations with my friends, the first thing I asked them when they they need to maybe just pour out a lot of their feelings to me, Do you want do you want, what do you need me in this moment do you need me 

Michael Watts 21:12
right. 

Ronya Nassar 21:12
tier to vent or do you want me to give you advice or do you want me to help you. And I think that's also one of the beginning parts for those conversations. 

Michael Watts 21:20
And it is and they have to feel like you're sincere and you're listening. If they feel like you're just being polite. You're kind of hitting a brick wall. You have to really engage with these individuals, no matter what level they are in society, because they have to feel like you're willing to engage with them to step aside and listen and take the time to listen so that they feel like somebody is paying attention to their needs. And if they do that, then you'll find that it opens that door for them to move to the next process. 

Laura Crowder 21:51
And to springboard off of what you just said a little bit, I find that when as a clinician, people come to me, they already know the letters that go in front of them behind my name. So they know that part. They want to feel me out as a person. They want to know that I care and listening to them with an open heart and an open mind and not having an agenda other than to meet them where they are is really so 

Michael Watts 22:16
Very 

Laura Crowder 22:17
important. 

Michael Watts 22:17
much so. Yeah. And to not to a lot of times, people have a tendency from their own experiences in life to kind of frown down on someone's experiences or maybe even possibly while they may not verbally state it they're condemning them for something they've done and you have to take yourself out of that and make that person feel like that you are really intentionally trying to help them. And if they feel that, no matter if it's a child or an adult, a veteran or a civilian, that makes that person feel like somebody sincere about trying to help them. 

Laura Crowder 22:51
Absolutely. 

Wendy Beck 22:54
In my experience, when someone's in new recovery, it's a very vulnerable time. They've just been through treatment or they're going to some type of outpatient program and you've removed that drugs and alcohol from their life. At that point their mental health starts to seep back in. So they have a lot of things that are going on that were numbed from the use of drugs and alcohol. And for us their behavior starts to change and they're not just able to work through the program. So they need a higher level of care and having that conversation with them where we recommend that they need to go and have a therapist or do other things. It is hard because if they're not in the right mindset they're in jeopardy of going back out and using and that's a really scary thing. 

Ronya Nassar 23:49
Then I actually go our, I'm actually going to go into our 

Nolanda Robert 23:52
into 

Ronya Nassar 23:52
question. Now leading into what are some effective, what are some effective ways that professionals like you all can help normalize mental health discussions in every day. 

Laura Crowder 24:08
I think that sharing our own experiences as well as those of family who are comfortable with us sharing, just being really down to earth and saying, hey, I haven't had a charmed life, I've had issues too. You know, you're not alone. We're all human. 

Michael Watts 24:26
One of the things that I see from the perspective of the military, all of us at some point have had what's called an interview when we go to apply for a job. In the military, unfortunately, when you get your discharge papers, you don't have an exit interview. So the thing to keep in mind is that a lot of these young men and women, they start out of high school and they go right into the military. They're taught when to get up, when to go to sleep, when to eat, when to have fun, and so now they're discharged and they're placed into society. When they're put in that environment, it's kind of like a dark room with no lights in it and they have a hard time adjusting to that. So I think the fact that you have to open that light up and turn that light on in the room, no matter what the circumstances are to let those people know that there is help out there for them, there is measures to help them without condemning them and out feeling bad. And again, I just want to emphasize the fact that communication is the key to all of this. Without communication, you will not get anywhere. And they have to again feel like that what you have to say has value in merit and that you're there to help them. 

Laura Crowder 25:39
And I just want to jump in with a little bit more about something that you said. You talked about judgment and condemnation. And I would encourage anyone if you've gone to a professional that's doing that to you, get a new professional. 

Michael Watts 25:55
Exactly. 

Laura Crowder 25:55
You would not take your card to someone who did a terrible job working on it. Don't see someone for health care that's doing a terrible job 

Michael Watts 26:02
Yeah, 

Laura Crowder 26:02
for. 

Michael Watts 26:03
don't don't be around somebody that's condemning you or making you feel bad about your feelings. You need to get out of that environment and find somebody that will put you in a positive position. 

Laura Crowder 26:12
Precisely. Yes. 

Nolanda Robert 26:13
I'm 

Ronya Nassar 26:18
going to ask my next question, which it's probably one of my favorite questions because I'm a public health professional. But how 

Nolanda Robert 26:28
can 

Ronya Nassar 26:29
mental health care become more 

Nolanda Robert 26:31
accessible 

Ronya Nassar 26:32
and culturally responsive for all communities? 

Nolanda Robert 26:37
So I do teaching on this a lot internationally because I do a lot of work on cultural competency and looking at mental health. And so. 

We really need to meet people where they are, but some of it is also placing a lot of mental health services in places like schools and community centers and faith-based centers, making it more accessible. The problem is it's not very accessible. The problem is that individuals have a hard time finding mental health providers. I remember in the courts trying to find therapists for children and it sticks in my head to this day that this one lady said "I have a waiting list of 236 and I was like that's absurd." It didn't make sense, but it also told me that there's not enough mental health providers out there. But when I say being culturally aware, depending on what the culture of the person that's coming to you, when I worked at Sinai Hospital, I had a highly caseloot of Orthodox Jewish faith. So I took the time to learn about the Orthodox Jewish faith because it helped me work with my kids and the families because some of what they were dealing with was family related and from the things they had to do, the ways they had to do some of the religious... 

I can't even say how I want to say that, but Regimen, I'm going to say it that way, but some of that was dealing with a lot of anxiety and where that anxiety came from. So learning in the courts, we deal with lots of cultures and so working with those families as well and being able to identify what the needs are because what my culture believes might be not what your culture is. Not what your culture believes and being able to be unbiased when having these mental health sessions or teaching individuals about mental health. Because in some cultures, mental health is not... you're not supposed to seek that help, you're supposed to keep it internally in the household and not let what other people would say, not let public know your business. And I remember growing up and that was one of the things as a kid, we're not going to let everybody know what our business is, Nalanda. Just let you know, keep it internal. So an idea with a lot of that is in African culture. That does happen in awful lot. You do not go to the school and disclose what happens behind closed doors. 

Michael Watts 29:27
I'd like to follow up on something she mentioned. You hear me talking about veterans, but I want to understand that veterans have families and they have wives or husbands, they have children. And so when a veteran goes through stress and they go through depression and they go through these turmoil in their life, it affects their family members. So while the American Legion is concentrating on the veteran and their needs, the individual that we're working with also needs to be aware that the family is being affected by this as well. And they're kind of left out in the dark because I've seen these cases where a veteran will in a suicide position or be institutionalized and then the family is left with the turmoil and how do they pick up the pieces. And kids don't understand these things and sometimes even adults don't understand these things. So mental health is from the position where I sit is a family issue, especially when you have turmoil in a family where there are suicide discussions or threats or even anger and madness, this throws a family into a position that everybody becomes fearful. And they're not sure the level of fear and then when people say well you need to talk to somebody and get mental health, that throws an additional fear into them because now they're going to think that people think that they're crazy or they're not very stable. And so as a society we need to make sure that we understand that there's more to an individual in a family unit, there are other people affected by that. 

Ronya Nassar 31:07
Mm-hmm. 

Jennifer Redding 31:08
And regarding culture, I think, you know, certainly it's a pun, all of us to learn as much as we can. But I think, you know, you're never gonna know all that you can. So there's something that I sort of have coined is authentic curiosity. 

It can feel intimidating. And so, from my perspective, I genuinely don't have all of the answers. I don't think I have all of the answers. I'm here to listen, help you sort of shift perspectives so that you can arrive where you need to arrive to get healthy. But I think as a clinician, it's genuinely asking questions to better understand where that person is. Culture is a piece of it, you know, so that we can understand and not assume we know. Because we might know some things about a culture, but, you know, we're all individuals, we're all different, we come from different backgrounds. And so, really genuinely coming at it, you know, out of curiosity. 

Laura Crowder 32:22
And to kind of follow what you were saying a little bit more. When I'm assessing somebody, I'm listening for what's important to them. And, you know, culture can interface with other cultures, even within the same person. And so I want to hear what's important to you. I want to know what your identity is about. And sometimes people help me to learn about them. But it behooves me, it's my responsibility to learn about the culture that they're a part of so that I can better serve them. 

Ronya Nassar 32:57
Thank you. 

Wendy Beck 32:58
I do have one thing to add to that. When someone comes in to a situation where they're in recovery from addiction, we don't necessarily know if the reason for their addiction was because of their trauma and or mental health issues. And then once they have an addiction issue and they come out of it and join recovery. They have a lot of anxiety and depression at that stage. So you know, the culture is that this person has a stigma of being an addict or an alcoholic. But what led them to that? We don't know where it started or if it was after their addiction. So it's all kind of intertwined. And it's not something that you can just say, oh, you know, the stigma of being an addict or an alcoholic is because of this because of the substance use where it could be from trauma before or it could be trauma during and the anxiety and depression after. 

Ronya Nassar 33:57
you. That question is really important to me. I am first generation 

Wendy Beck 34:01
Thank 

Ronya Nassar 34:02
American. My father, Palestinian, Jordanian, my mother, Lebanese, born in Lebanon. 

Wendy Beck 34:09
and 

Ronya Nassar 34:09
And I've seen what they've experienced and. Everything coming to America and all that stuff. And I've understand, you know, a lot that they've gone through and the conversations I have and, you know, when I first, you know, reached out to them and let them know, hey, I'm. It's seeing a therapist, 

Wendy Beck 34:27
the conversations. 

Ronya Nassar 34:29
And, and you know, for 

Wendy Beck 34:30
them. 

Ronya Nassar 34:31
Like, you know, exactly what nalanda said, we, what do you mean? Like, we don't, but we don't talk about it to other people. We keep our business inside and it got to a few more conversations where we kind of really discussed the importance of talking to a third party and, you know, the importance of maybe them talking to a third party. And then I got them into talking about mental health. And it's just really important. And I think to with these conversations to be culturally responsive to like. 

I'm a child and I shouldn't be taking care of my parents, but making sure that that the family 

Laura Crowder 35:05
Maybe 

Ronya Nassar 35:06
conversation 

Wendy Beck 35:06
conversation, 

Ronya Nassar 35:06
constantly always happens and there's always opening 

Wendy Beck 35:08
yes. 

Ronya Nassar 35:09
for that conversation is really important. So 

Laura Crowder 35:14
Next 

Ronya Nassar 35:14
next question 

Wendy Beck 35:14
question. 

Ronya Nassar 35:14
I want to go into is talking about conversations you might have with your client. So how 

Wendy Beck 35:20
do you 

Ronya Nassar 35:21
foster trust connection with clients who may feel hopeless or closed off? How do you foster, how do you foster trust and connection with clients who may feel hopeless or 

Nolanda Robert 35:32
off? 

Ronya Nassar 35:33
closed 

Laura Crowder 35:35
We already talked a little bit about this in terms of non-judgment and just being open-minded and open-hearted. A lot of times, people have really gone through it. Not only to get to the point where they're needing help, but to talk themselves into walking through that door or making that phone call, sending that email to reach out to us. And so, just being a real person with them and not putting on errors, hearing what they have to say, and letting them know how I can help. And if we need to plug in other services, also not thinking I can solve all the problems of the world, you know, there's expertise that I don't have. And there are a lot of people out there that are very talented and a number of different things, and so having the humility to know when to plug a person into another service is also important because we want to bring that support around in a holistic way for them. 

Wendy Beck 36:36
Alright, 

Ronya Nassar 36:37
how would you all envision the future of mental health care in your community or just across Harford County? 

Nolanda Robert 36:47
>> I've been wanting to see mental health integrated all over Harford County. I have been talking to people about, can we have a like mobile mental health where we end up in a community and we're able to provide to the clients that can walk to us? Because not everybody has transportation and let's be killer. If we don't have a car, we do have some bussing, but it's very hard to get around in Harford County, and we have rural areas and we have more municipality areas but still sometimes children, adults can't get to those agencies. And so therefore I would love to see that layer, you know, I've talked to a couple of different people who work with the Health Department and other agencies that are like this is a great idea. How do we make that work? Because that would help individuals know, okay, I can walk to see the therapist, I can walk to talk to someone. 

That's an vision of mine. In working with all the families I have worked with throughout the 30 plus years, you know, what I have found is that I feel like we've lost more therapists and gained more therapists, if that makes sense to anyone. So there's people decide they don't want to do this anymore and so therefore there's sometimes people are sitting on waiting lists so we're not getting to those individuals and how do we effectively get to people? You know, I kind of like a mental health, you know, how doctors used to go door to door, you know, and give medical services, I feel like some way it would be nice to have door to door mental health services. 

Michael Watts 38:48
I think the issue with mental health is a serious educational issue and that is that society that we live in puts a stigma on mental health. And until the society understands that you can be an IQ of 160 and we've known some of those people in our past history that have had mental issues while they may be very smart, they're having issues, and I think it's a society we have to accept the fact that all of us at some point in time in our life go through a trauma, go through depression, go through issues, and mental health is just part of life. And until we educate society that no matter if you're a school teacher, a police officer, a military person, or any our judge and I work in the legal system, we all have these issues and that is is that there are mental times in your life that mental health will come up and slap you in the face when you think you're the perfect specimen of a human being. And you'll have trauma late in your lap. And so until we educate society that mental health is a normal process and it's like going to see a doctor when you have the flu, if you've got an issue, you need to understand that there are people there that can help you and get you through that process it's not a permanent thing it's not a life expectancy that you're going to have these problems the rest of your life, but the key is is to seek out help and know that people when you do seek out help they're not condemning you for that purpose. 

Nolanda Robert 40:19
And can I just say one quick thing off that is one of my biggest quotes is everyone could use a mental health therapist. >> You're usually using your best friend, you're using somebody and your family that you're close to, but you are talking about your feelings. And I think that if everyone realizes that, you know, that is their outlet may be talking to their best friend, talking to their spouse or whatever, but everyone could benefit from having a mental health therapist. 

Michael Watts 40:48
>> I just want to add one thing from experiences a young guy. I remember when I was 22 years old, I was dating this girl and she was telling me she was going to a therapist. And I thought to myself, what's wrong with this lady? You know, and I had no clue and she said to me one day, would you come to the therapist with me? And I was scared to death because I'm thinking to myself, what is she 

Nolanda Robert 41:08
>> What is she taking 

Michael Watts 41:09
taking me? 

Laura Crowder 41:09
me? 

Michael Watts 41:11
What am I walking into? Well, the first thing that happened was when I walked in the door, they told me I had to pay a $75 fee. And I'm thinking about, so not only am I going to have an 

Nolanda Robert 41:20
>> 

Michael Watts 41:20
issue here, I got to pay for it. >> So we said to her. And I've listened to this guy talk and she's telling him about how she spent her week with me and things she did. And I walked out and there were a different perspective. And I understood that it's a place where you can kind of vent, and you can kind of get, you can sound, and you can kind of get this experience that you wouldn't get from sitting at somebody with a bar or a dinner table. That is somebody that can kind of give you some perspectives, not always good or bad, but just gives you a different perspective to look at things. So that was my first experience as a 22 year old guy walking into a therapist's office. And I had no clue what was going 

Nolanda Robert 42:00
on. 

Michael Watts 42:01
So it definitely changed my perspective because I just had this image of some guy sitting by the desk with his beauty looking glass and he's going to try to analyze me for the rest of my life and it didn't happen. 

Wendy Beck 42:13
>> I'd like to say what I'd like to see in Hartford County. I am a parent. I have a daughter. She's 20 and we had a really, really difficult middle school and high school experience. A lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, and it was part of the COVID situation again for her. And I really felt like there were no resources for me as a parent of where to go. 

Ronya Nassar 42:39
>> 

Wendy Beck 42:39
There was no support from NAMI in Hartford County when I tried to seek that. It was very hard to get a therapist. So I feel like as a parent dealing with something like that, I was lost, I had no idea. And again, you have someone who is resistant to any kind of therapy or their own feelings. So I feel like we would be better served to educate families in some way and have resources for them to go to that are accessible when they are needed. Because you can't plan when you're going to need that type of service. 

Ronya Nassar 43:18
And in Hartford County, here's my public health analyst. 

Wendy Beck 43:25
We are 

Ronya Nassar 43:25
actually our entire county is actually designated as a 

Wendy Beck 43:29
mental 

Ronya Nassar 43:30
health professional shortage. So the entire county is actually dedicated to that, which shortage of mental health professionals in Hartford County in general. Now, what does it really 

Laura Crowder 43:42
means that 

Ronya Nassar 43:42
mean? I mean, there's some benefits if you're a mental health professional, you can come in and maybe get some type of benefit to pay back your loans and things like that. But we need to really look deeper, in my opinion, 

Laura Crowder 43:56
a 

Ronya Nassar 43:56
into ways on making advertising Hartford County as a good place to live and a good place to work. So these mental health professionals can come in 

Laura Crowder 44:05
here 

Ronya Nassar 44:06
And we need to also continue to promote mental health professionals or just getting a mental health degree 

Laura Crowder 44:15
and 

Ronya Nassar 44:16
to two kids. I mean, maybe we need to 

Laura Crowder 44:18
work. 

Ronya Nassar 44:18
talk about it more. This is an option. What are the different groups? really want to work with adults. Well, you don't have to just work with adults. You can work with kids or maybe you want to work with a different population. So for 

Nolanda Robert 44:32
He 

Ronya Nassar 44:32
me, I'd love to envision Hartford County as a place that doesn't have a mental health shortage and that there is no waiting lines and it's a way to get it. And it's affordable because who wants to pay $75? 

Nolanda Robert 44:43
doesn't 

Ronya Nassar 44:44
That's a lot of money. 

Michael Watts 44:46
Well, yeah, exactly. And there's something else I'd like to add, and most people are not aware of this. Most people have health insurance policies, and if you look at your health insurance policies, it allows for therapy. It allows for you to be able to see a physician. A lot of people think it's an out of pocket expense, but a lot of insurance companies now realize that it's preventive medicine. And so if you're concerned about not having to be able to pay the bill and $75 was cheap, or I'm talking about in the '70s, '70s, it's probably $150 now. But your insurance policy will cover a lot of these mental health evaluations and therapists, but you have to look at your policies and determine if that's something and how much they pay and how many visits you allow to have. And you ladies probably know more about that than I'm doing, should because I'm sure you're dealing with these insurance people that come in. But it has shifted. There was at one time, there was no coverage, and now it's shifted to that coverage 

Wendy Beck 45:44
Well, I, sorry, this is something that I feel very passionate about as well. Now I know that there are mental health first aid courses that you can take, but I don't think that there's enough. So I think we need to ramp that up, and we need to target it towards parents, because parents do not know what to look for. They do not know when to act, when not to act. They don't know how to interact with their high schoolers or their middle schoolers when they're going through these types of things, because I grew up in a generation where it was like you're gonna be okay. It's fine, don't worry about it, but we're not dealing with that now. They don't accept that as an answer. They're feeling all their feels. They have a lot of exposure to social media, which is creating an underlying problem. 

Nolanda Robert 46:30
now. 

Yes. 

Wendy Beck 46:30
And I don't think that we're addressing that at all. 

Nolanda Robert 46:33
Yeah, I will concur with that from seeing children and adolescent a lot. I hear a lot that my mom or dad don't pay enough attention. They're in their screens, they're in their phones. They're texting. They're sleeping. They're behind closed doors working. I actually had a client and both her parents were therapists, and I was like, oh, really? And you're here with me because they were not paying attention to her and her needs. And a lot of parents miss the suicidal red flags. And it's really sad because it gets to the point where they're at the client center because they've missed the sign and they've walked into a circumstance. So I always say, please be mindful. Spend time with your children. Check in with your children as often as possible. And that is a big need. I love the first aid for parents and maybe to identify some of these things that they can look for when they're, seeing their kids and observing them from middle school to high school, and younger. 

Wendy Beck 47:38
Yeah, and I feel like the culture has changed from me growing up to having children that are in their phones all the time. And you have no idea what's going on. So if they're going through something hard, you don't know. They're in their phones. They're behind their closed doors. And by the time you notice, it's, it has escalated to a place where you have no idea where to even step in. 

Ronya Nassar 48:01
Mm-hmm. I love that idea. 

Laura Crowder 48:03
I would also love to see more access or more visibility of the mental health professions within the schools for kids so that they see that clinician on a daily basis or that they see clinicians coming into their classrooms and giving talks about issues they might be going through. And we touched a little bit on social media. I think it can be a double edged sword. Sometimes you deal with lots of abuse on social media. But I also see younger clients who come in and they say to me, I have this issue. I saw this on TikTok. And I'm like, well, TikTok doesn't 

Nolanda Robert 48:44
Cleary 

Laura Crowder 48:44
diagnose. 

Nolanda Robert 48:44
exactly. 

Laura Crowder 48:46
But let's talk about what you know what you're noticing. And we'll go from there. But Wendy's really right that we come from a generation where it was like, suck it up and deal with it. And I love the emotional attunement of younger people because I was talking to a colleague who's less than half my age. And she was talking about self-care. And I was like, oh, my goodness. I love that you're speaking that way, because we didn't have that as a lexicon until fairly recently. It was just put your head down and keep trudging forward. 

Ronya Nassar 49:24
That kind of feeds into it. If we don't mind, I really want to skip and talk about both youth and adults. So, we're seeing rising levels of anxiety among both youth and adults. What connections have you all observed between increasing anxiety and maybe the onset of substance misuse? And how can we better adjust these issues early on so that we can prevent that progression? 

Nolanda Robert 49:53
So, anxiety in youth has skyrocketed. I think every client that I see has anxiety. Some of it is circumstantial. It has to relate to school and being bullied. COVID really did a whammy. I will say that. It really increased after COVID. Kids didn't know how to interact with each other anymore. The social emotional component completely flew out the door. And kids don't know how to relate. So, now they're anxious about the situation of going to school. They're peers and just dealing with life in general. And so therefore, we start self-medicating. And some kids have admitted to rating the bar at mom and dad's house. Being able to access marijuana, the gummies, and things like that. That's why I used to be in the courts and say, parents, I know it's now medically approved. Please put your gummies away, lock box, etc. Because your kids who are depressed or having anxiety are going to want to access that. So, I work with a lot of kids about how to work with their anxiety, how to build up their self-esteem and their self-worth. Because that is the other second problem I'm seeing is that especially in the girls, they have very, very low self-esteem and cannot seem to identify that they are good, beautiful individuals. And so therefore, that makes them feel like everyone is against them. They don't trust peers very well. And then, that increases the suicidal ideations. So, there is a lot of things that are going on with our youth. And again, there's not a lot of child and adolescent therapists. I am specialty is play therapy. So, I make sure that we don't have to talk all the time. I can watch what you do with your sand play, with your art, with anything else I'm asking to do. And so, therefore, and also when hands are busy, they talk anyway. So, they're just chatty cat these. And you get a lot of information out of them because they're distracted by that hands on. But I have seen children and adolescents increase with therapy. And I think parents need to be able to identify what, again, those signs look like, but also make your children feel safe that they can talk to you. A lot of times children do not feel like they can talk to a parent. Sometimes parents are rushing so they brush them off. And then, all that brushing off, all that does is make them internalized. And then, you don't get that, you know, that result that you want for your kid to be able to tell you anything that you want. And it does tail off of TikTok. TikTok is their therapist. I mean, I've had kids come in and I'm like, I'm bipolar, too with, and he's narcissistic. And I'm like, well, how do you know this? Well, the lady on TikTok. Well, we're not listening to TikTok anymore. Like, turn it off. They are not mental health therapists. And you have to train our youth in that. I see kids as young as four. I have kids who are four who are very, very anxious. And so, that comes from a lot of households. That comes from domestic violence. That comes from a plethora of reasons. So I think with children, I try to treat them with a very soft glove and having an open door. And I think it's very beneficial to them. And I think parents will see great improvements when children are able to let go of that anxiety. I 

Jennifer Redding 53:59
think the other piece with social media. It's relevant for all of us, but I think it's in. particularly important with kids who are always on their tablets, who are always on their phone. When you think about our physical bodies, our nervous systems, our brains, that really puts us all into this hyper-vigilant state. We're overstimulated. If you can remember, you know, I don't know how old folks are, but I grew up in the age before computers, and so I didn't have the internet when I was an anybody kid, and so you actually got to experience being bored. You say that, like, that's like a, like a, like a four-letter word. Now, I'm bored. What? And so, the beauty of being bored is that it helps your nervous system sort of re-regulate itself. Our kids are not getting that privilege anymore, and so they are constantly stimulated, constantly stimulated, and so that then translates into anxiety. As adults, you know, I find myself when I've had a really tough day, I'm like, I find myself even more so on my phone. I now understand my nervous system, and I understand that I need some, some blackout time. I need some quiet time, and that helps to reset. And so, I think that's something that we all need to start being able to put words to. I love that kids have the vocabulary and can name feeling such as anxiety. I think that's an amazing sort of thing, but I think it's helping them understand what that anxiety is. It's your body's reaction to feeling some of those symptoms, such as your heart's racing, maybe your palms are sweaty, maybe you're feeling really fidgety in your seat, and so those are all physical symptoms, and so they require sort of a physical outlet. It's energy that's pent up, and so when you can sort of help kids connect the dots and adults, and make sense, and there is actually physical things that you can do to release that. Obviously, I'm not talking about some of the long term things that we need to address in the therapy room, but in the moment when it feels like you're crawling out of your skin, those are some very real things, and so I think it's helping to connect the dots on where that's coming from. 

Laura Crowder 56:24
And part of what you were talking about there is somatic attunement, and so being able to actually be in our bodies, and part of what these lovely devices that are such wonderful tools allow us to do is to dissociate from our bodies, you know, our consciousness is pretty much focused on that device, and we're not paying attention to what's going on in our physiology, and paying attention to those cues that you mentioned can help us to plug back into them and re-regulate, and also to re-embody. And that's an important thing for people to relearn. I've noticed that the amount of dissociation has gone up exponentially since the pandemic, and we're teaching kids and adults, you know, I see adults more so than kids, but you see it with kids, and I'm not sure if you see kids and adults, but I see it in every age range that there are people that are just so disconnected and disjointed from themselves as a coping mechanism, and so we have to learn how to get them safely back in their bodies so that they can re-regulate. 

Michael Watts 57:38
One of the things I wanted to talk about just a moment here is suicide among not only veterans but children. Unfortunately, we live in a society where children and suicide in general is glamorized on both the internet and in movies and shows and television. And young children are very absorbent. They take in a lot of their head, their brains like a sponge. They take this in. And I've talked to a couple of veterans who have attempted suicide and their children have found out about it. And then to them it's a funny situation. It's like my dad tried to commit suicide. So they accept it as a form of dealing with life when life gets into a situation where it's to them it's unbearable. One of the things I look at when I look at suicide issues is the number of children that's increasing in suicide. And it is a shame because our society makes suicide look like it's our way out. It's when all things, when you can't deal with anything anymore, it's time to check out. And I think it's something that we need from both adults and children that we need to educate all the above the adults and the children. That suicide is not the way out. The way out is to find a resource to help you get through your temporary problem. Suicide is an issue that people believe it's going to end their problem, and they don't realize that the issue that they're having is a temporary issue. And I've talked to a lot of veterans who have been have stepped down from pulling the trigger because somebody talked to them. And then after they said, looked at it, they said, well, a year later I look back on it and I thought, well, it's not as bad as I thought it was. And kids don't have that ability to think like that. To them, it's an instantaneous let's get rid of especially young teenagers. They're seeing this stuff on tick tock. You can go on you can actually if any of you are interested you can go on and put in Google suicide and it'll give you all kinds of ways to do it. There is a slew of suicide issues all over the world and anybody that wants to commit suicide, they'll walk you through it and tell you how to do it. There was a time in our society that you would never find that and now it's readily available to a six-year-old or a 60-year-old and it's something we need to be cognizant 

Ronya Nassar 1:00:10
of. Thank you. I want to go back to the mental health and addiction conversation so how can mental health and addiction services become more integrated to better support individuals who are struggling with both at the same time? 

Jennifer Redding 1:00:28
This is one of my soap boxes. It's why I started my practice back in 2009 because there is such back then in particular but even today there's the silo effect of you either treat the substance use behavior or you treat the mental health issues. You don't treat them together and obviously there are things that you have to tend to but I think training is incredibly important. So I do a lot on supervision and leadership for clinicians and you would be shocked on how many clinicians are afraid to treat someone who has substance use issues and I find it astounding because when you are caring for someone, obviously you need to care for that entire person whatever those issues are that they're presenting. It's not a perspective. We're responsible as professionals to get training if you're not familiar with what to do, educate yourself. I think it's also just really important and I don't know how else to put it but you have to check your ego. I work with a lot of professionals from different backgrounds and egos tend to get in the way on a daily basis and so if you're truly trying to make a difference trying to care for people you need to check your ego. Those are my two cents. 

Wendy Beck 1:01:55
I think that when someone leaves treatment they are provided with a lot of medication. They are provided with medication so that they can sleep further anxiety, for depression, for medication that they were on before, so some that they're new to them. I think that it's to handle the immediate problem at discharge or is the result of the treatment that they had in treatment. Sorry, that's kind of sounded redundant. But Then no one follows up. And we find that they're on this entire bag of medicine, they don't even know why they're on half of it. And maybe they shouldn't be on a lot of it, and it should have stopped. So I feel like that's a missing piece where they don't even know what they're on or why they're on it. 

Jennifer Redding 1:03:01
And 

Laura Crowder 1:03:02
I think that's where responsibility as clinicians comes into play as well. I don't think any of us are prescribers, but we certainly interface with them. And while they don't like to be told what to do from therapists, I'm an advocate for my clients. I always tell them, 'I'm team you.' And so if that involves me having a frank conversation with your doctor, but that's what I want. I talk about thinking that you're over-medicated because you're having this, this, and this symptom. Because of the medications, I'm going to have that conversation if you want me to. And educating clients about what some of the side effects can be, because I find very frequently that docs don't tell them about the side effects, and then I have the clients coming in, and they're blushing and, you know, they're, and I'm like, 'Let me guess. We're having some side effects here. And some of them can be hard for them to discuss. And just being willing to hear that and being on our toes enough to know, oh, that's probably this med that you're on, we need to get that tweaked so that you're feeling better, and you're not having your life adversely affected by your meds. This kind of the old school way was you traded off. You know, you had to deal with these awful side effects to feel a little bit better. And that's not always the case. There are much, there are a much greater variety of medications on the market. And not everybody needs medication. You know, I find that in our society, I, as soon as I hit 40, whenever I went to a doctor, and they'd say, how many meds are you on each day? What are your daily meds? And I said, none. They'd look at me like I was crazy. There, I used to wear crazy. They'd look at me like I was crazy. And I was like, you know, we shouldn't think it's weird to not be on a medication if you're of a particular age. We also shouldn't pathologize it if people need that to be healthy and safe. 

Nolanda Robert 1:05:05
And I was just going to say when it comes to mental health and addiction, if an individual has both, you have to treat both at the same time, because they are both causing, it's a cause and effect with both of those. And when I, I'm going to touch a little bit about medication, I find it's very interesting, and I love my parents I work with, and I see more parents doing this. A lot of parents are not trying to go Medicaid their children automatically. They want to see how the therapy process will work first. And we work, I work with the school teachers and other professionals to ensure that we can work on the behavior. And let's try to stop the impulsivity and the ADHD without the use of medication. Sometimes it's works, and then sometimes we have the conversation about, you know, some things are hereditary. And some things we just, we can't fix without having to go to that last step. And then that works, and they're behaving, but we still working through how to use those tools to still decrease impulsivity and ADHD behavior. And, you know, how to work on if we're sad and depressed and all those feelings, try to reduce the amount of medication that an individual needs. 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:21
I'm going to try to close up with 

Wendy Beck 1:06:23
last 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:23
like a few One 

Wendy Beck 1:06:26
questions. 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:27
thing, because we were 

Wendy Beck 1:06:28
talking 

Laura Crowder 1:06:28
a lot, 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:29
we talked a lot about TikTok. 

What? 

Wendy Beck 1:06:34
I 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:34
mean, what would give? I think, look, I used to talk a lot for us. 

Wendy Beck 1:06:41
So, 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:42
what gives you all hope when you 

Wendy Beck 1:06:44
think about 

Ronya Nassar 1:06:45
the next generation's approach to mental health? 

Think of me a millennial? 

Michael Watts 1:06:54
I think the educational process is something that gives me hope because from being involved with veteran suicide, a lot of veterans have never had the ability to understand. .. where they are and where they're heading. And because organisations like we're, like I'm involved with and individuals like all of you here, and doctors who have helped these individuals, uh, that educational process is one that is so valuable that I think in the future. 

If the people are smarter than this generation then they were a generation back and they will be smarter than us, our generation going forward. So I think education is something that mental health will be a valuable tool and people will understand, uh, rather be self-diagnosis or rather they have the ability to go on tic-toc and find out and what their issues are and then seek out a councillor. So I think education will be the future of mental health. 

Nolanda Robert 1:08:06
And I was going to say I think young people today are more vocal. They're, they don't feel it's a stigma to have a diagnosis or to need work or to need to improve themselves. And so I think that's very helpful. They're willing and able to walk through that therapy door. You know, they might be still a little nervous but they are willing and able to do that. And I also find like in teenagers, they're relying on each other. Unfortunately, you know some of the teenagers are talking to their best friends about feeling suicidal and self-harmon. I ask my client, you know, what do you do with that? Are you taking that to an adult at all? Is that you're taking it to your mom to tell that mom? So she's able to, you know, monitor her own child. So we have those discussions because youth are sticking up and helping each other. When they're in these friendships that are best friends, I do find that sometimes it's kind of clicky too that they are like, Oh, we're all depressed. And that's something also to monitor because they are. It's that talk, you know, diagnosis 

Jennifer Redding 1:09:13
generation. Badge of honor. 

Nolanda Robert 1:09:15
Exactly. 

Michael Watts 1:09:16
I'd 

Nolanda Robert 1:09:16
Exactly. 

Michael Watts 1:09:16
like to address something you were just talking about. I've I had an experience where five young men at the age of 25 were all friends and they all went through an issue with relationships or loss of jobs. And within a month, all five of them committed suicide. They were all friends. Also, there's a American Legion post in Laurel that three young men that were active at Fort Meade. One was 26, one was 34 and one was 36. All three committed suicide within two weeks of each other. One of the things that seems to be related to suicide issues is that it's kind of like a pack. It's like a pack of walls. I hate to say that terminology, but it's like one for all and all for one. And one of the things we need to talk about whether they be children or adults is just because this person committed suicide doesn't mean it's okay for you to commit suicide. There are various reasons, but I caution people about people that kind of joke around with suicide. My friends talking about suicide. That's a very triggering issue as a therapist or as an individual that works with these people. When I hear that, it perks me up immediately. Because there are packs forming and you have to be very careful of those packs. 

Wendy Beck 1:10:36
I think, ooh, I'm sorry. No, I'm just saying, you know, as a parent and the social media and all the things that our teenagers have gone through. I think that in the future, I think we're going to we're going to make changes because of the fear because we are. I'm genuinely, you know, scared for these kids. So I think in the future, we are going to have to make changes because of the fear of what's happening right now. And maybe that's going to be the catalyst to make those kids when they get older to be able to educate us and and their kids going forward. This is very a very different time. We never experienced anything like this before. 

Laura Crowder 1:11:22
And to kind of follow along that track, I think that the community that kids are forming is so powerful. And it can be very detrimental or very beneficial. And one of the things that I find hope in with younger people is their emotional maturity. I see people, again, half my age that are more emotionally mature than people double their age and more. And I feel that young adults really get kind of kicked down a lot and told that they're too up in their feelings and that sort of a thing. They've got a lot to be up in their feelings about. I mean, let's be honest. And so. Validating that, and actually listening to them, either as a clinician, as a family member, as a friend, as a colleague, as a parent. I think it's important to listen and to know that where they're coming from, is their reality. 

Ronya Nassar 1:12:30
Last big question, if 

Laura Crowder 1:12:33
you 

Ronya Nassar 1:12:35
our listeners, with 

Wendy Beck 1:12:36
believe 

Ronya Nassar 1:12:37
one heartfelt message about healing, what would it be? 

Jennifer Redding 1:12:45
For me, loud and clear, is that you're not alone. Again, that, you know, when we get in our heads, and we think we're the only ones experiencing, whatever it is, or that we're just so isolated, that's what keeps us from asking for help, and receiving support, uhm, it's often, you know, the catalyst for suicide, and so, you know, just sort of keeping it really simple, you're not alone, there are people who care about you, and who want to provide you that support, you just have to let us know. 

Laura Crowder 1:13:17
I would say that healing is possible, and whether we're talking about addiction, whether we're talking about suicide, sometimes just interrupting that momentary impulse of, "I'm going to do this thing", be it, "I'm going to use my substance of preference, or I'm going to kill myself", you know, interrupting that thought. Having that timeframe pass where you're not acting on that impulse makes you less likely to act on it, and then we can reach in and support them from there, and building in those protections and building in those safeties, and just knowing that healing is possible. It would be my biggest message. 

Wendy Beck 1:14:04
What I've seen with the women in the houses, or the teenagers that I've interacted with, with, you know, my daughter's friends, over the years, is that having empathy, and when you can truly show them that you care, and you might not have all the answers, but you're there, sometimes you were the first person that has actually done that for them. 

Nolanda Robert 1:14:28
And I'm going to say healing is not linear. Healing is going to have its ups and downs, and sometimes, in moving forward, you're going to become stronger, more compassionate, but it will take some hurdles involving with that, and again, you're not alone, and I think entering into therapy and wanting to heal is the bravest thing that someone can do. 

Michael Watts 1:14:55
And I would like to close in saying that one of the things involved in the veterans is what's called a buddy check. Now, a buddy check can be used both in civilian and in military. A buddy check is to find someone in your circle of friends, and if you don't have that person that you feel comfortable with, then seek out a therapist, or a physician, or a neighbor, or somebody that you have trust in, and that you believe 

and they have the best interest for you. And then, when you feel in a position where you're vulnerable, and you're depressed, and you're confused, that you can reach out to that buddy, whatever that is, whether it's a female to female, a male to female, or vice versa, be able to reach out to that person, and that person needs to let each other know those two people. That I'm available for you, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I don't care where you are, what you're doing. If you find yourself in that position, I'm a phone call away or a car ride away. Because that is the first line of defense in any mental health issue, is that they have somebody they can reach out and talk to. 

Ronya Nassar 1:16:10
And I'd like to leave my last impression by just reiterating how amazing of a community we have here in Harvard. Just the wonderful people that are sitting in front of me, rich for putting them together this podcast, but the fact that you all are here listening is really important. So I want to thank everybody on this panel here and everybody here that's listening and especially my friend Rich. 

Does anybody in the audience have any questions for our lovely panel up here? 

Yes, 

Jennifer Redding 1:17:11
yes. 

Michael Watts 1:17:13
And that's what's called. 

Pack suicide. That's what it's referred to. 

Well, let me just say this to you. There are signs and signals. when these things start happening and you can reach out to professionals and it's a little late for that now and I understand but for the people that are listening and in the future, if you see your child or relative or a friend having certain things going on in their life, PAC suicide is a very common thing. They don't actually have to be physically touching, there's PAC suicides online, a lot of this is going on now. There are people out there that can help. We have a whole bunch of ladies up here and men in the field that can do that but the key to any of that is awareness. If you have awareness and if you learn, I mean even if you don't read up on it, there are resources through Google or other sources that you can find information about how to look for suicides and issues and how to prevent them and how to talk to these people. But PAC suicides are a very common thing and unfortunately I'm sorry to hear that for your nephew. 

Nolanda Robert 1:18:43
>> And I was going to say it is more active now amongst our youth and all on the online threshold. I've had a couple parents catch it on the use phone where they see they've been having those conversations with other people online and so for everyone else to be mindful of that because that's still a big thing for children and adolescents. 

Wendy Beck 1:19:48
>> 

Jennifer Redding 1:19:55
The 

Michael Watts 1:19:56
human touch is amazing thing and if that person, I'm sure you, when you left that person felt the warmness of that human touch sometimes that's all it takes to let them know that somebody cares about 

Jennifer Redding 1:20:10
them. >> I think sometimes we over complicate it, you know? Just holding space with another person sometimes can make all the difference. Obviously there are resources, you know, but in that moment that's exactly what she needed. You know you provided that for her so certainly. 

Michael Watts 1:20:28
>> And don't quit. 

Jennifer Redding 1:20:30
>> Yeah. 

Laura Crowder 1:20:31
>> You did such a beautiful thing and a beautiful job and if you need any resources, I'm sure any of us, and I want to say I'm glad to and I don't want to volunteer other people, but I believe all these wonderful people would as well help you with resources if you need them. 

Michael Watts 1:21:17
>> I have a question for you, is he ex-military or military? At some point, okay. 

Nolanda Robert 1:21:21
>> I mean I find that individuals start isolating themselves when they're feeling really, really down and continue to do that outreach to him to try to let him know that you are there for him and you know I even say show up at the door if you know where he's at, knock on the door, he may or may not answer that door but he knows that you are wanting to have that contact. Once you get that contact, that's when you can really be effective in saying, okay, let's talk about this. How are you feeling? We're okay, let's get you to see somebody so you can talk out those feelings. Let him know it is okay to not feel okay and a lot of people don't understand that it is okay to feel okay and not okay. You know, some days I don't feel okay, but you know having him know that you two are there to support him, continue doing what you're doing and again we can give you some resources, slip it under the door. Like you can do we can give you all the tools you need to try to get to. 

Michael Watts 1:22:28
>> This is a common family issue. All of us I have issues and people in my 

Nolanda Robert 1:22:35
family. 

Michael Watts 1:22:36
They don't speak to each other so it's not in common but I found through my own personal experience, the dealing with family members is persistence, persistence is the tool that makes that other person feel like you're not 

Nolanda Robert 1:22:48
on 

Michael Watts 1:22:48
giving up them and if you don't give up on them they won't give up on you. 

Laura Crowder 1:22:52
>> And also you know if he's not picking up the phone, send him a text, you can send him a card in the mail, write him a letter, I had a friend who was feeling down and she broke her arm and can't you know, can't make her food and I sent her some oatmeal and she got it today and she said how did you know this is my favorite flavor? 

Nolanda Robert 1:23:14
said 

Laura Crowder 1:23:15
And I didn't. I just guessed 

Michael Watts 1:23:17
I 

Laura Crowder 1:23:17
and you know it's a little things like that. You already do, you know, you already do a lot of healing with the people around you and so just keep going with your heart there and sharing the resources that you find. 

Michael Watts 1:23:33
>> I hope we helped you. 

Ronya Nassar 1:23:34
>> And next question? 

Laura Crowder 1:24:20
That's a great question. May I take a? May I take a? I love this question! We could talk for hours on this one, so we live in a society that detaches men from their emotions, which can be fatal. Um, that in the helping fields equates to a lot of men not being in this field. We also deal with, even though those co-pays are brutal, um, it, it not paying a lot from the insurance perspective, and so, you know, you typically see men in higher paying fields. A lot of people are nitched out and specialized, um, and so that can kind of limit it more, so you'll get more of that specialized care in a particular issue. But it can also be difficult when we have an area where we have fewer clinicians than we need, when you don't have generalists, so it's difficult. Um, and we could talk for hours on this, and I 

Michael Watts 1:25:23
them. I 

Laura Crowder 1:25:23
would walk in with 

Michael Watts 1:25:24
would like to 

Laura Crowder 1:25:25
That, 

Michael Watts 1:25:25
intervene. 

Laura Crowder 1:25:26
those are my immediate answers. 

Michael Watts 1:25:28
I would like to intervene on something about, because I deal with men, uh, and also, I have had experience dealing with mental physicians who deal with mental health. For physicians, there's an ego problem here. Um, and when there is an issue, especially dealing with veterans since that's got a specialty, 

veterans, or for that matter, most men are not comfortable talking about their weaknesses. And because of that, um, the men in the physician, perhaps in mental health, there's, they don't see the, the need because the need is not coming to them. Men, my dad was notorious for this, is saying, "You should save my mother." When you go to the doctor, it's like going to a mechanic. They're going to find something wrong with you. And that's the position that men take. I'm not going for mental health, I'm not going for physical, because there's a built-in ego that I can get through this myself. So it may have something to do with mental, with men in the field of mental health, because there's not a big need for them, because men are not comfortable going to see them. That, that stigma is changing, by the way. Uh, in a rapid pace, because I see the veterans now starting to find out that some of these doctors and physicians and therapists out there have had experience in the field of war battle, and also in experiences in mental health in general. So that door is 

Nolanda Robert 1:26:54
open. We'll 

Michael Watts 1:26:55
see it right now. 

Nolanda Robert 1:26:56
And I was going to say, even as a relate to first responders, I'm married to a first responder. They, as much trauma and drama that they see, they still will not walk in that door unless someone mandates them to go in because of the drama and trauma that they've seen. And it's unfortunate that, that, that, that, that ego thing. It's just like, I don't want them. Is that going to affect me? Am I going to get fired? Because I have a mental diagnosis. 

Michael Watts 1:27:26
It's it's a tough call for men. I believe me. I sit down and talk to a lot of them, and there's a barrier there that you have to overcome. And I know, I know from experience that a veteran who's experienced wartime will not talk to somebody that hasn't experienced wartime. But if you get in the same room with him or the same little corner, and they know that you've experienced wartime, they'll open up to you. So there's that ego thing. And that happens with, I have friends of mine who are police officers and FBI agents, and they are this, they're no different than you and I. They go home and they, they absorb it. My brothers are retired detective from Baltimore County. And the, the stories he's told me the things he's seen. But when you talk to his wife, she doesn't know anything about it. Because he swallows it up and lets it eat him inside. And unfortunately that happens a lot. 

Jennifer Redding 1:28:20
What's interesting, though, I predominantly, I don't see a whole lot of clients anymore, but when I was, I predominantly saw men. And what I was hearing from them, because I, again, I'm always curious and I'm always just trying to learn from my clients, is that for some of my male clients, they felt more at ease talking to a female because of that sort of, you know, they didn't want to show all the cards or, you know, whatever to another man. But they felt it was a little bit easier talking to a female. I think it's, you know, it's an individual choice. I think I see both sides of it, you know, having done a lot of work with first responders and really being in the trenches, just in general of trauma, you know, working with child sex abuse early in my career and then it's evolved. But what I find is, you know, you don't necessarily have to be a survivor of child sex abuse or sexual assault. Or even, you know, combat trauma to understand and to be able to hold space and let me back up, not to understand because you've not literally been there but to be able to hold that space and to approach it with curiosity and to approach it with creating sort of that safe space, coupled with skill and strategy. I think that's really what's most important because, you know, the idea is, you know, once things are safe, you need to be able to move forward, and sometimes that's a little bit more complicated than just listening. But it absolutely starts with listening, 

Michael Watts 1:29:59
so yeah, 

Laura Crowder 1:30:01
definitely. 

Michael Watts 1:31:01
That's also what I said earlier, there's some insurance policies that people have health insurance, it's embedded in there. They just have to take the time to look forward, but those services are available to them and some of them actually have no co-pays on them. And you're allowed so many sessions a year into 12 month calendar. 

We have a number now, especially for suicide prevention, it's 988, and then in the 988s for civilians and 9881 is for military. And they have professional counselors that will talk to you on the phone to measure and determine where your level of problems are. They can do everything from get a police officer there to an ambulance, they can make arrangements and keep you on the phone to keep you talking to get those. And those are available to civilians too, so in the work environment in Harford County, people need to be aware of the fact that it's a phone call away. And it's a free service, and they don't ask a whole lot of information, but they're there to get assistance for you. And it doesn't necessarily have to be suicidal, it can be a situation where it's a trauma, but they need to talk to somebody. 

Laura Crowder 1:32:41
And I just want to interject one thing about trauma that you meant, where you just mentioned trauma, and it made me think about this. Back in the old days, we used to have to muck into that trauma and dig it out and go through it to work on resolving it. Now we have things like EMDR, which is the only treatment acknowledged by the VH treat PTSD. And those of us who have experienced it know that it has amazing efficacy, it works quickly, it's quite effective, you don't have to commit to years in years of therapy. And a lot of times that can help people get through to the door as well. 

Michael Watts 1:33:19
Yeah, also too, you're on that subject. If you're a veteran and you have veteran benefits, it does cover your family for mental health issues as well. A lot of veterans aren't aware of that. In fact, at our post here on the September of the 13th, we had the VA come in, and we probably had about 30 plus veterans that sat down and talked to the VA people, and the benefits that they received from that, they were not aware that was available to them. So I would recommend that any current veteran, or retired veteran, check out either online or reach out to the VA. There are a lot of benefits for veterans, and if you're a civilian, there's a lot of benefits through your health benefits and through the county as well. 

Ronya Nassar 1:34:03
All right, so does anybody else have any more questions? I just want all of you to take it just one second, and just if you have any resource website or phone number to let us know. Again, I'm Ron in the SAR. I'm from the Hartford County Health Department. We also have a full functioning behavioral health unit at our Bel Air location. And if you need more information on that, you can go to www. HeartfordCountyHealth.com and we have all of your information there. 

Jennifer Redding 1:34:36
I think I have two points of contact. Just for my practice, Hartford Counseling, it's pretty simple. HartfordCounseling.com. It's pretty original. The other piece outside of 9-8-8, for our county, we are lucky in that we have a very robust warm and crisis line here locally. They will eventually get to it by 9-8-8, but if you call 1-800-NEXT-STEP, they are very familiar with all of our local resources. Can come to you. If you're in the county, they can actually come to you and talk and help you figure out what's the next step. It's all at no cost. So those are the two points of contact I would leave you with. 

Laura Crowder 1:35:23
I've noticed here in Hartford County people like to use the telephone more than the technology a little bit sometimes, so I'll give a phone number. My personal client number is 410-776-9547. If I can't help you, I will find someone who can. And you can text me there too if you don't want to talk, because I understand. 

Wendy Beck 1:35:48
If you're in the market for sober living for women, you can go to rageagainstediction. org, and we can hopefully find you a bed if not with us with someone else in Hartford County. 

Nolanda Robert 1:36:02
And I'm with Voice of a Child. It's simpletovoiceofachild. us. That is my website. If I cannot take your child, or adolescent, I do have a list of other child therapists that I go to. And we kind of feed off each other. 

Michael Watts 1:36:21
And mine's going to be real easy for you. My name is Michael Watts. I'm the state chairman for be the one. That's be the one meaning that you'd be the one to help a veteran prevent suicide. I'm involved with the American Legion. You're sitting in a post right now. If you need help, all you have to do is reach out to somebody in this post. Preferably somebody that's aware of it. They will get in touch with me. I can get you the help you need or point you in the right direction, or there for you and your family doesn't make any difference. If you're a veteran, we can help you out. If you're a civilian, but our emphasis is on the military, so feel free to reach out to your local American Legion post. And it's be the one I have business cards up here. I'll be happy to give to anybody, and we can get assistance for And I'd like to thank you all these ladies up here because without these ladies, helping us, our society would be in serious trouble. And I would like to let people know how much they are appreciated and how valuable they are in our community. 

Nolanda Robert 1:37:22
Thank

Ronya Nassar 1:37:22
you all. 

Rich Bennett 1:37:31
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love it if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with rich Bennett.com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care. Be kind and keep the conversations going. You know, it takes a lot to put a podcast together and my sponsors help add a lot, but I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing software, the hosting and so forth. There's a lot that goes in to putting this together. So I want to thank them. And if you can, please, please visit their websites, visit their businesses, support them. However, you can. So please visit the following full circle boards. Nobody does charcuterie like full circle boards. Visit them at fullcircleboards.com the Joppatowne Lions Club serving the community since 1965 visit them at joppatownelionsclub dot org and don't forget the E at the end of Joppatowne because they're extraordinary, sincerely so your photography live in the moment. They'll capture it. Visit them at sincerely soyer.com